The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Genie]

2 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

That's like asking why are you a racist/xenophobe/idiot on here at the minute

I wouldn't blame him if he didn't answer

I think it's a fair question tbh, I'm genuinely interested to know.

[Davkaus]

There's been nothing but respect for people who can articulate reasonable reasons for voting leave, even if a lot of people don't agree. 

The only people being called racists and idiots are people with racist and idiotic reasons for voting leave.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Davkaus

[This Could Be Rotterdam]

6 minutes ago, Genie said:

Why did you vote leave?

There were a lot of reasons, and I can assure you that not one of them was due to not wanting immigrants living next door (which they do already,great people,hard workers and I'd take them in exchange for the druggie who hasn't worked from the day he left school). 

Personally I want to be able to hold the decision makers accountable.i don't think the here any better than those who are in Brussels,but at least we have a vote on the people who make our decisions. 

I can't Say I agree with cap (which takes over 40% of Euro budget iirc), nor the ttip. I don't believe it will affect trade to the extent suggested. Belarus are the only none I state not to have tariff free access and I can't see the wto making any punishment by the Eu easy.

The negotiation that Cameron held was pointless and the lack of movement right up until voting day confirmed it. Remain but with reform wasn't ever going to happen because the knock on effect would be huge. I genuinely see leave as a safer long term option than remain. The Eu will onl get more aggressive in its approach and I would rather not be part of that. Our lack of confidence in doing so is a result of the Eu, we shouldn't doubt ourselves. We should have confidence in making this work, and instead of calling each other bigots, racists and xenophobes should embrace the opportunity we now have.

as I say many reasons, and certainly just as, if not more thought out than remain voters. My gripe is with the suggestions that by voting leave you are a racist without question. 

[sharkyvilla]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

I think it's a fair question tbh, I'm genuinely interested to know.

I'd also like to know, what is the plan?  That's what angers me most, not that people have a problem with immigration, or that people have a problem with EU law, as I have had a problem with many things with the EU, but that as far as I can tell there is no plan at all that they have voted for.  I think most of the stupid people I know have all voted to leave, there's little getting away from that, it's the smart people that did who I am perplexed by.  It's a bit like a couple of weeks ago I hated my job so much I considered just walking out and chancing it, having no idea how it turns out.  Then after about half an hour I changed my mind as it would be daft.

[HanoiVillan]

43 minutes ago, Genie said:

I think a very large proportion of the leave voters didn't really understand what they were voting for and what the EU actually is.

The fault lies with those incharge of the remain campaign. 

Rather than focus on what might happen when out (which is incredibly difficult to predict)  they should have put more emphasis on what we actually have being in (economic stability, freedom of movement etc). 

The first of those issues is notoriously difficult to demonstrate (stability is a lot easier to see when it's absent), and the public was actively hostile to the second. How would that campaign have worked?

Edited June 26, 2016 by HanoiVillan

[jon_c]

I haven't spoken to a single leaver face to face, that when given time to speak a while hasn't ended up making some pretty xenophobic or racist comments. It's like Godwin's law bought to the real world. That is a judgement I have made from direct personal experience.

Please don't assume I'm insulting you. By grouping you with these people. I'm not. As I haven't spoken to you personally I can't judge your own motivations.

Maybe I because, I speak to a lot of the general public in my work, I meet a very broad selection of people. So I'm more likely to meet the extremes, but it doesn't feel like its just extremists.

If you don't believe the leave campaign garnered votes by stoking this culture of fear and hate. That's your right. I believe that your wrong.  You can believe I'm wrong. But that doesn't make either of us an idiot.

 

 

[cyrusr]

15 minutes ago, This Could Be Rotterdam said:

There were a lot of reasons, and I can assure you that not one of them was due to not wanting immigrants living next door (which they do already,great people,hard workers and I'd take them in exchange for the druggie who hasn't worked from the day he left school). 

Personally I want to be able to hold the decision makers accountable.i don't think the here any better than those who are in Brussels,but at least we have a vote on the people who make our decisions. 

I can't Say I agree with cap (which takes over 40% of Euro budget iirc), nor the ttip. I don't believe it will affect trade to the extent suggested. Belarus are the only none I state not to have tariff free access and I can't see the wto making any punishment by the Eu easy.

The negotiation that Cameron held was pointless and the lack of movement right up until voting day confirmed it. Remain but with reform wasn't ever going to happen because the knock on effect would be huge. I genuinely see leave as a safer long term option than remain. The Eu will onl get more aggressive in its approach and I would rather not be part of that. Our lack of confidence in doing so is a result of the Eu, we shouldn't doubt ourselves. We should have confidence in making this work, and instead of calling each other bigots, racists and xenophobes should embrace the opportunity we now have.

as I say many reasons, and certainly just as, if not more thought out than remain voters. My gripe is with the suggestions that by voting leave you are a racist without question. 

I don't wholly agree with you, but it's a fair and valid point and this is why democracy is great. It's also the reason why I say we need to reform the House of Lords; I just think we were better trying to sort it in rather than out and working together

Personally I think the majority of leave voters were more inclined to this sort of reason, or more "this is not what we signed up for"; which fits with the demographic of older voters choosing leave. 

The media however probably aren't so interested in hearing from the justifiable arguments, it's much more newsworthy for people to shout "we got our country back" (and unfortunately they tend to be the loudest too).

The swing though was 634,751 votes. That is 3.65% of the leave vote. Whilst as I say above (and in my earlier post) the majority of leave voters will have their justifiable reasons, I struggle to see that less than 3.65% of the leave vote was for either "immigrants out" or "government out/we are sick of austerity". That's why, certainly I am annoyed.

As a leaver, can I ask who do you think is best to sort this out? Ultimately if we are leaving, it needs to be the best for the country and it would be helpful to have a different perspective. 

[OutByEaster?]

52 minutes ago, This Could Be Rotterdam said:

 Remain but with reform wasn't ever going to happen because the knock on effect would be huge.

I don't get what you mean here - what would the knock on effect have been? 

Quote

I genuinely see leave as a safer long term option than remain.

And there's something in this I think - there's an argument that in 20-30 years time we'll be in a position to take advantage of the economic independence, be out of the recession the decision costs us and able to move forward and become stronger. I can understand that as an argument, but I've not heard much of it from those who voted Leave - the long term seems to be a year in the minds of some of those i've spoken to.

Quote

The Eu will only get more aggressive in its approach and I would rather not be part of that.

it's approach to what? I'm guessing federalism? If that's the case then I can understand you not wanting to be part of that, even if it's not something that I'd see as the same sort of problem.

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We should have confidence in making this work, and instead of calling each other bigots, racists and xenophobes should embrace the opportunity we now have.

I think this in a nutshell is why so many of those that have voted remain are angry and struggling to accept the decision - we don't have an opportunity that we can embrace now - we have a recession that we can embrace now, job losses, a weaker pound, higher prices and uncertainty - we can wait to embrace the opportunity that we might have in ten or twenty or thirty years time, but it's pretty clear that things aren't going to be better for a long time if at all. 

There are two failures present - the failure of those that voted Remain to accept the democratically stated opinion of the majority and the the failure of those that voted to Leave to recognise exactly what they've done. 

It'll be no fun saying "I told you this would happen" when I haven't got a job.

 

[Kingman]

Didn't vote myself, However it didn't take long for the old racist card to be played for almost every bitter counter opinion  

[HanoiVillan]

On the other hand, the vote does seem to have led to real outbursts of actual racism on the street:

 

Nobody is saying racism and xenophobia are the only reasons people voted Leave, but pretending that those emotions were irrelevant is just an exercise in ignoring reality. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by blandy
swearing edited out

[StefanAVFC]

16 minutes ago, Kingman said:

Didn't vote myself, However it didn't take long for the old racist card to be played for almost every bitter counter opinion  

Clearly that's what's happening.

[Davkaus]

Can't we send the racists out, instead? Give them their own little island, where there's only white people. They'll sort the rest out on their own.

Things are only going to get worse when the illiterate knuckle-dragging scum realise that immigration isn't going to significantly change, and we're certainly not forcing people to leave who are already here. But will they take their anger out on the duplicitous tossers who pandered to their racism, or to immigrants? I wonder.

[Kingman]

5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Clearly that's what's happening.

Yeah shame really. 

A defeat is a defeat! But i guess the best party didn't win lol

Edited June 26, 2016 by Kingman

[Davkaus]

 

What kind of cretins follow this piece of shit? Gets called out for not doing his job, that he's paid a salary to do, and he just sits there and chuckles, the **** lying waste of oxygen.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Davkaus

[StefanAVFC]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

Quote

“What’s the EU ever done for us?” Zak Kelly, 21, asks me this standing next to a brand new complex of buildings and facilities that wouldn’t look out of place in Canary Wharf. It’s not Canary Wharf, though, it’s Ebbw Vale, a former steel town of 18,000 people in the heart of the Welsh valleys, where 62% of the population – the highest proportion in Wales – voted Leave.

To go there – along a new dual carriageway – and stand next to the town’s new sixth form and training college, a glass and steel architectural showpiece next to its new leisure centre, a few hundred yards away from a new train station, is to stare into the abyss of the UK’s failed Remain campaign.

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, Kingman said:

Yeah shame really. 

A defeat is a defeat!

You obviously missed the sarcasm.

[Chindie]

I'm loathe to quote Billy Bragg but he wasn't wrong when he said 'Not everyone that votes Leave is a racist, but all racists will vote Leave'.

A lot of the incidents coming out over the last few days are a result of the referendum result, emboldening those that carry those beliefs with the feeling they've been legitimised.

It's disgusting. But there we have it. I maintain we've still got a significant issue with racism in this country. It's got better and become (generally) less visible (I say that knowing Newcastle had a banner in the city centre advocating repatriation, and all the other grim stuff above), but it's miles from going away.

But it's not the main cause for the Leave result. Just an element of it.

[AshVilla]

11 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

On the other hand, the vote does seem to have led to real outbursts of actual racism on the street:

As much as i don't condone the comments and think they are disgusting, i found the picture hilarious

[HanoiVillan]

Yeah, my issue wasn't with the picture. Admittedly, that is quite funny. 

[Rodders]

The overnight change in tone has been frightening. My mixed race partner has had no comments directed at her since living in Cardiff... until yesterday. **** charming.