PaulC Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 2 hours ago, fruitvilla said: I could be wrong ... but my sense is some of us here are after retribution. No but I could make the same case that some of us are more interested in fairness for the person who committed the crime than justice for the victims. That is so **** up imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 20 minutes ago, PaulC said: No but I could make the same case that some of us are more interested in fairness for the person who committed the crime than justice for the victims. That is so **** up imo. The three loved ones won't come back. The trauma for the others won't go away quickly, if at all. The families' anguish won't go away quickly either. So apart from retribution what would you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 57 minutes ago, Rds1983 said: If the death sentence was in place for some crimes, there's a chance it then gets expanded out to other crimes, all of which increases the risk that at some point an innocent man is executed. Yup, I agree completely, you'd never find me arguing for the reintroduction of the death penalty. I can just see why the dumb monkey brain kicks in and have to fight it myself in a case like this that is just so clear cut and abhorrent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 (edited) 8 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: The three loved ones won't come back. The trauma for the others won't go away quickly, if at all. The families' anguish won't go away quickly either. So apart from retribution what would you suggest? Nothing. Just send him to a mental institution for 5 years and let him back into society so he can commit the same crime again. Can you just forget it. It's pointless discussing this anymore Edited August 2 by PaulC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, fruitvilla said: While I get this point of view, it certainly is not mine. There is a deep philosophical/scientific underbelly to this question. And it is the question of free will and the fundamental nature of this unfolding universe. It is easy to go with our intuitions and feelings. Thought requires a bit more effort. I mean if you're going to try and go down the free will versus determinism route, the thought requiring effort is nothing to be proud of, you were just destined to do it anyway. There's got to be a thread for pretentious philosophical rocket polishing though Edited August 2 by Davkaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rds1983 Posted August 2 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted August 2 40 minutes ago, PaulC said: No but I could make the same case that some of us are more interested in fairness for the person who committed the crime than justice for the victims. That is so **** up imo. I'm assuming I'd be put in this bucket based off previous posts. Which isn't really what I've been arguing for but appears to have been missed by people. I've been arguing for his rights to be protected, because you can't treat him as an individual, however he is treated by the legal system sets a precedent for the next person, and the one after that, and the one after that, until eventually it's someone who is actually innocent and deserves those protections. I'm obviously disgusted by this event and worried about the rise in knife crime, but I'm also concerned about the continual erosion of important legal protections and the move towards a more totalitarian state. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 25 minutes ago, PaulC said: Nothing. Just send him to a mental institution for 5 years and let him back into society so he can commit the same crime again. Can you just forget it. It's pointless discussing this anymore I agree with it being pointless when you come up with this type of non sequitur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 2 Moderator Share Posted August 2 33 minutes ago, PaulC said: Nothing. Just send him to a mental institution for 5 years and let him back into society so he can commit the same crime again. Can you just forget it. It's pointless discussing this anymore Total number of people in this topic that have said this - 1 Thats you by the way 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 22 minutes ago, Rds1983 said: I've been arguing for his rights to be protected, because you can't treat him as an individual Another way of looking at it ... It's our rights, not just his. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NurembergVillan Posted August 2 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted August 2 8 hours ago, foreveryoung said: I really don't think it's much of a assumption at all. 3 hours ago, Davkaus said: Hard to blame people in a case like this tbh. I'm pretty firmly set against the death penalty across the board, and think our prison system should be focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment. But if I were leading this lad to a cell, I wouldn't worry too much about making sure his shoelaces had been removed. 1 hour ago, PaulC said: No but I could make the same case that some of us are more interested in fairness for the person who committed the crime than justice for the victims. That is so **** up imo. In response to these three posts, I can't possibly claim to speak for the parents of these children but I can speak as someone who has experienced a close family member being stabbed to death. I can speak as someone who has debated for hours with my brother, the father of that murder victim, and someone who would until that point have been of absolutely the same mindset as you guys and many more - until it was real. At that point, we were in agreement that the most important thing was a conviction. That it was there on paper, for evermore, that {insert name here} is a murderer. And after two arduous trials with arguments about diminished responsibility, that's what happened. Our thoughts on when the murderer was locked up were that we wanted him to feel every day of it. To wake up in a cold sweat, to miss his Nan's funeral, the birth of his nieces or nephews, to find it really hard. Because if he was dead, by his own hand or otherwise, he's off the hook. His suffering would be over, ours wouldn't. As we've seen after the Southport riots, some people prefer to turn that negative energy into a positive response. My niece set about fundraising to have several bleed control kits installed across north Birmingham in my nephew's memory. Living where she does and knowing the people we know, it wasn't predetermined to play out like that. It's a complex set of emotions to process, but for us justice was the important thing. 1 hour ago, PaulC said: Nothing. Just send him to a mental institution for 5 years and let him back into society so he can commit the same crime again. Can you just forget it. It's pointless discussing this anymore Yeah, that won't happen. There are minimum sentences for these types of crimes even with mitigating circumstances. In our case the killer was sent to a secure facility for life with a minimum of 23 years. He's since been moved into a proper jail. Again, I can't state enough that I can't claim to speak on behalf of anyone except myself and some members of my family. But equally, my viewpoint has been shifted so much that I can no longer comprehend the sometimes bloodthirsty (not on VT) response from some people on behalf of others. 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 Interesting discussion...btw, Anyone watching Rob Rinder (ex judge and defence lawyer) on ch4 program Britain Behind Bars - A Secret History? He is very anti capital punishment until he discovered that the British hangman at the Nuremberg trial executed a number of people responsible for murdering lots of his family in the extermination camps in WW2. He admitted to being very conflicted with his view of anti capital punishment after this. To be fair I think most of us would think like this if ever God forbid we have to experience the murder of a loved one. I am not a supporter of capital punishment, but when kiddy fiddlers and murders of kids go to prison, many people will say "they will have to watch their backs now, they will always be looking over their shoulder, the inmates will be after them"........are we "sort of" allowing additional punishment responsibilities over to the inmates to deliver "additional justice"? I.e. abdicating punishment/justice and allow inmates to do it for us? For example Ian Huntley, the Soham murderer has been attacked several times in prison. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 I'm against capital punishment simply because people are falsely convicted a not-insignificant amount of time. Even just 1 innocent life is worth more than countless heinous criminals, because at least you can still punish them. You can't take back a life. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, delboy54 said: Interesting discussion...btw, Anyone watching Rob Rinder (ex judge and defence lawyer) on ch4 program Britain Behind Bars - A Secret History? He is very anti capital punishment until he discovered that the British hangman at the Nuremberg trial executed a number of people responsible for murdering lots of his family in the extermination camps in WW2. He admitted to being very conflicted with his view of anti capital punishment after this. To be fair I think most of us would think like this if ever God forbid we have to experience the murder of a loved one. I am not a supporter of capital punishment, but when kiddy fiddlers and murders of kids go to prison, many people will say "they will have to watch their backs now, they will always be looking over their shoulder, the inmates will be after them"........are we "sort of" allowing additional punishment responsibilities over to the inmates to deliver "additional justice"? I.e. abdicating punishment/justice and allow inmates to do it for us? For example Ian Huntley, the Soham murderer has been attacked several times in prison. Great post. A friend mentioned the Rinder Program and I think the hangman was Albert Pierrepont. Will have to give it a watch. Edited August 3 by PaulC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: I'm against capital punishment simply because people are falsely convicted a not-insignificant amount of time. Even just 1 innocent life is worth more than countless heinous criminals, because at least you can still punish them. You can't take back a life. I'm against it too for those reasons but in certain heinous crimes like this it does question those beliefs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 17 minutes ago, PaulC said: I'm against it too for those reasons but in certain heinous crimes like this it does question those beliefs. I’ve always been of the persuasion that those who commit such atrocities should suffer rather than just be killed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veloman Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 25 minutes ago, PaulC said: I'm against it too for those reasons but in certain heinous crimes like this it does question those beliefs. Agreed ! The murder of Lee Rigby being another example perhaps. No doubt about guilt there -- was there ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 With new technologies in DNA and cctv etc, it's much easier than to used to be to get a clear conviction and not charge the wrong people, especially with heinous crime. I'm still against capital punishment. But if these people who commit these crimes are not mental, they know they are going to prison if caught, an that don't seem to bother them. So for me, the best that can happen, is they have a few slaps in prison and don't let it be like they thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted August 3 Moderator Share Posted August 3 53 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: With new technologies in DNA and cctv etc, it's much easier than to used to be to get a clear conviction and not charge the wrong people, especially with heinous crime. I'm still against capital punishment. But if these people who commit these crimes are not mental, they know they are going to prison if caught, an that don't seem to bother them. So for me, the best that can happen, is they have a few slaps in prison and don't let it be like they thought. That touches on an important point. Capital punishment isn't proven to be a deterrent. I guess in some respects it comes down to the concept that if your own life isn't worth anything, neither is anyone else's. For ordinary people like us (LOL) the idea of jail is enough to deter us from most or all criminal activity. It's not the thought of jail that stops me from killing people, though. It's just not in me. So if you are the sort of person who will genuinely kill for whatever reason - retribution, terrorism, gang-related, diminished responsibility - the punishment is already irrelevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 @NurembergVillan Rob that post from your lived personal experience is a really important post on this subject. We can all speculate about how we'd feel if something happened to one of our children/close family member, and I've done it myself, but none of us really know until we are in that position. I actually think the death penalty is too lenient a punishment for those who have committed horrific crimes. It is an easy way out which is why you get a lot of those who have committed those crimes attempting to take their own lives. A lifetime of punishment and suffering would be a far tougher sentence than death. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 29 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: @NurembergVillan Rob that post from your lived personal experience is a really important post on this subject. We can all speculate about how we'd feel if something happened to one of our children/close family member, and I've done it myself, but none of us really know until we are in that position. I actually think the death penalty is too lenient a punishment for those who have committed horrific crimes. It is an easy way out which is why you get a lot of those who have committed those crimes attempting to take their own lives. A lifetime of punishment and suffering would be a far tougher sentence than death. You say this. But if you offered these criminals jail time or death, what do you think they would choose? Even in countries where they have the worst jails and still have the death penalty. The criminals still fight to stay in jail rather than be sentanced to death. It's not emotive, but if someone stabbed up my child, I'd want him dead. Not hanging or anythng torturous admitted. But lethal injection, I'd probably watch it too. If my child or close member of family can't have life, neither should they. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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