gharperr Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 (edited) Didnt heynckes have the enjoyment of having ribery+robben in their prime not getting injured all the time? (you have to tell me) Think its pretty silly to just compare Pep vs heynckes given theres tons of variables which change Edited May 5, 2016 by gharperr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 8 minutes ago, gharperr said: Didnt heynckes have the enjoyment of having ribery+robben in their prime not getting injured all the time? (you have to tell me) they havent been injured for 3 seasons, also Guardiola demanded Gotze when he took over and the lad barely gets picked so its not like he has poor options in the squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 5 minutes ago, Zatman said: they havent been injured for 3 seasons, also Guardiola demanded Gotze when he took over and the lad barely gets picked so its not like he has poor options in the squad He demanded Gotze to disrupt Dortmund primarily. Job achieved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 I don't think anyone is making out that guardiola is a bad manager. He clearly isn't.... at all. However, I think Barcelona is such a tight family in terms of philosophy that it's quite difficult to judge a manager based on their performance there. Since guardiola left, Barcelona haven't suffered considerably which you'd imagine they would losing a manager who is supposed to be as good as he is. Furthermore, like I say, bayern now seem to be a miles away from the team that were destroying teams across Europe only a matter of years ago. Like I say, I think he has a lot to prove away from the home of barca. Dominating German football with bayern Munich is not really an achievement imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 5, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Woodytom said: So you think he's lived up to his hype at Bayern? What's that got to do with whether he's failed or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Woodytom said: I don't think anyone is making out that guardiola is a bad manager. He clearly isn't.... at all. However, I think Barcelona is such a tight family in terms of philosophy that it's quite difficult to judge a manager based on their performance there. Since guardiola left, Barcelona haven't suffered considerably which you'd imagine they would losing a manager who is supposed to be as good as he is. Furthermore, like I say, bayern now seem to be a miles away from the team that were destroying teams across Europe only a matter of years ago. Like I say, I think he has a lot to prove away from the home of barca. Dominating German football with bayern Munich is not really an achievement imo. How much was that to do with Robben. He was brilliant for them. Ribery isn't the same player he was either. Edited May 5, 2016 by PaulC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 6 hours ago, Stevo985 said: What's that got to do with whether he's failed or not? Ok, i think you know exactly what I mean but il change the question for you. Do you think bayern have progressed under guardiola? Has guardiola progressed at bayern? Has he achieved anywhere near the level he did at barca? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 6 hours ago, Stevo985 said: What's that got to do with whether he's failed or not? Ok, i think you know exactly what I mean but il change the question for you. Do you think bayern have progressed under guardiola? Has guardiola progressed at bayern? Has he achieved anywhere near the level he did at barca? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharperr Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 (edited) your criteria of progressing under pep all comes to aggregate of 3 two-legged ties against the best teams in the world (only looking at direct results). You dont think thats way too small of a sample size? Edited May 5, 2016 by gharperr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 This has turned into one of the daftest discussions on VT atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 he's shite without messi. fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 3 hours ago, PaulC said: How much was that to do with Robben. He was brilliant for them. Ribery isn't the same player he was either. Although he was of course brilliant, I don't think you can put the success down to that Munich side of 1 player. They were brilliant all over the field. Furthermore, guardiola is given credit for the way in which he got rid of the ageing players at barca. Surely he's had an opportunity to do that at bayern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 27 minutes ago, gharperr said: your criteria of progressing under pep all comes to aggregate of 3 two-legged ties against the best teams in the world (only looking at direct results). You dont think thats way too small of a sample size? Well seen as he's leaving this summer, we don't have an awful lot to go on to be honest do we? The very best managers are evaluated on the very best tournaments and he simply hasnt delivered in the champions league imo. Fine margins and I'm sorry, but losing to good teams in the champions league, is kind of why it's the champions league. I don't think theyl be too many bayern fans thinking 'oh, well it was athletico madrid'. I'm sure theyl have been expecting to reach the final, if not, win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaForever1970 Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Pep should manage Rotherham, then if he wins the champs league with them after 5 years he would deserve the hype. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 18 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Although he was of course brilliant, I don't think you can put the success down to that Munich side of 1 player. They were brilliant all over the field. Furthermore, guardiola is given credit for the way in which he got rid of the ageing players at barca. Surely he's had an opportunity to do that at bayern? Some players are irreplaceable. Robben was as important to Bayern as Messi is to Barcelona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, PaulC said: Some players are irreplaceable. That's just simply not true. People who are deemed irreplaceable are just people who have failed to be replaced. At one point Schmeichel was deemed irreplaceable. It could be argued man utd have an even better gk now. You don't need arjen Robben to win the champions league. Nor do you need Lionel Messi. Go back 3 years. You're a bayern Munich fan and you find out your getting pep. I dont believe any fan would have thought that before he leaves they won't have won the champions league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 . Goalkeepers are easier to replace. Have united replaced Ronaldo? Theres few truly great players around and they make the difference. Pep wouldn't have done what he did at Barcelona without Messi. We attach too much importance to managers. Its players that win matches. What would have happened if Muller had of scored that pen tuesday. Pep might have won a champions league at Bayern. We are talking small margins between success and failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 16 minutes ago, PaulC said: What would have happened if Muller had of scored that pen tuesday. Pep might have won a champions league at Bayern. We are talking small margins between success and failure. Yes, but it is the difference between success and failure and that's pro sport. What would have happened if muller had have scored the pen? Who knows? Maybe torres would have scored is. Fact is, he didn't and pep hasn't won the champs league which I imagne was his main aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted May 5, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted May 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Woodytom said: Ok, i think you know exactly what I mean but il change the question for you. 1) Do you think bayern have progressed under guardiola? 2) Has guardiola progressed at bayern? 3) Has he achieved anywhere near the level he did at barca? 1) Domestically yes. Internationally, no. 2) I don't know how you can possibly answer this. Most likely the answer is yes. 3) No Even if the answer to all those questions was no, that doesn't make him a failure. Not living up to the hype doesn't make him a failure. There is a middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: 1) Domestically yes. Internationally, no. 2) I don't know how you can possibly answer this. Most likely the answer is yes. 3) No Even if the answer to all those questions was no, that doesn't make him a failure. Not living up to the hype doesn't make him a failure. There is a middle ground. Out of interest. What's the middle ground between success and failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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