London Villa Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, bobzy said: Most of your posting r.e: Garde is masquerading as well-reasoned pieces, but comes across as far too anti-Garde and far too pro-Sherwood. "He didn't inherit a side completely cut adrift... and totally hopeless. He didn't inherit a side that was getting battered every week. He inherited a side that under Sherwood had only lost one game by more than 1 goal." Of course he didn't inherit a side completely cut adrift, only 10 games of the season had been played. However, the same side had lost 8 of them. 8 out of 10! I'm not sure how we've managed to come to the conclusion that the side isn't totally hopeless when the entire season suggests otherwise. However, with absolutely zero additions to the team (in fact, a major loss in Amavi being injured), Garde's team has lost 7 in 15. People seem to focus a lot of energy on pointing out "records" as something important - they simply aren't. If we lost every game we've lost this season 10-0, we'd still be better off if we'd managed to turn some of those defeats into draws. Sherwood's complete ineptitude has left us too far off competing to stay in the league. If he had the same loss record as Garde, but only managed to get draws from the games he lost, we'd be at worst 5 points from safety. But it's not just this simplistic view that can be taken into account. Sherwood utilised Benteke brilliantly last season and had him taken away from him this time round - alongside with other fairly solid players like Delph and Vlaar. However, he had a summer working with the squad to try and get an idea implemented. A style of play. He achieved nothing at all. Garde has had to understand and evaluate the players all over again - and the alarming fact seems to be that some of them just aren't good enough - but, given he's working with the same crop, we currently look a lot more organised. The Liverpool defeat was humiliating in the application given but, again, we actually started the game looking pretty decent. No threat, but pretty comfortable. I agree that most fans thought this squad could compete and lacked a decent manager. I put myself in this boat but have now realised that, actually, it's incredibly unbalanced. I think some of the players are pretty decent but we don't have the players/positions to get the best of out of squad on the whole. You ask yourself "has Garde got the best out of this squad then for me I have to say no" - what were you expecting to happen? What did you think the same squad that lost 8 out of 10 games then lost Amavi to injury (and had to replace with Richardson) were going to achieve? Relegation was always going to be a huge possibility after that start. It's disappointing that we haven't won more games under Garde, I agree, and it's also incredibly disappointing to see our defensive players make the same mistakes over and over. However, this isn't a team with goals in it. The best we could hope for was to become more solid and try to grind out some wins. Under Garde, I feel this is more of a possibility than it has been under any of our recent managers. Miracle worker? No. Best manager in the league? No. Huge failure? No. What he is, for me, is exactly the kind of manager we need. Someone who identifies weaknesses easily and has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He's the kind of manager who will shape a team to his requirements (given board backing, lolz) and demand his players act responsibly. Is it worth sacking him to go through all this all over again? Absolutely not. 100% this. Great post. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 What he is, for me, is exactly the kind of manager we need. Someone who identifies weaknesses easily and has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He's the kind of manager who will shape a team to his requirements (given board backing, lolz) and demand his players act responsibly. I'm not sure there's much evidence to back a lot of that up. To me that just seems like an awful lot of faith in a manager who hasn't been a manager for that long. I hope what we're currently seeing isn't the clear idea of how he wants his team to play because it's negative and incredibly boring most of the time. I would like to believe he's the type of manager who will shape a team to his requirements but have we seen much evidence of that yet? And i'd imagine most managers would demand their players act responsibility but it's one thing demanding something and another getting players to actually do it. At the moment, it's a fairly rare sight to see our players acting responsibility on the pitch. I don't think he should be sacked but I do think an intense review should be held in the summer to determine if he's our best shot of promotion. For me the jury is very much out on if he's the right man to try and bring us back next season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, bobzy said: Most of your posting r.e: Garde is masquerading as well-reasoned pieces, but comes across as far too anti-Garde and far too pro-Sherwood. It is masquerading as nothing it simply is what it is. I have made no decision on Garde yet and will judge him at the end of the season something I have repeatedly said. I am not happy with how things have gone so far though. I acknowledge that we have at times looked more solid but we have also had three good hidings. I acknowledge he inherited a shit situation but don't think it was a hopeless one and neither did those that matter as they went to the trouble of paying off his predecessor and staff, I'd imagine to the tune of in excess of 5 mill, as they didn't think he was getting anything like enough out of the squad of players he had which would make them correct as I don't believe Sherwood was getting enough from them. I also look at Gardes CV and nothing on it helps me in judging if he is a man capable of getting us out of the Championship just as nothing on it gave me any indication that he could drag a side from the foot of the table to survival. His managerial record is very limited and to put any kind of belief in him given what he has done before he came and what has happened since he arrived at this time requires, for me at least, a huge leap of faith. I am not anti Garde though. Far from it. He comes across fantastically well in interviews, speaks a lot of sense and most recently I think he did brilliantly in lifting the players for the Norwich game after the disappointment of the West Ham game and I said in this forum it was fantastic at that game to be amongst fans chanting his name long before we went a goal up. Me liking him though isn't enough. I really like Lambert but in the end backed him for way longer than I should. At the end of the season I will judge him on his time here as to whether or not I think he is the man to lead us into next season. As I have said though I think it will matter little what any of us think as I strongly suspect either by choice or because he is pushed that Garde won't be around come the summer. Edited February 18, 2016 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted February 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2016 On February 16, 2016 at 18:39, dont_do_it_doug. said: We signed some players with some ability in the summer, almost to a man they are deficient in character. I'll give a free ride to Ayew in that respect, but it's simply not enough. Garde cannot find in them what simply does not exist. They botched it ad have been botching it for years. It's a disgrace. Yes, the big structural problems -- I agree. The years-old botching -- agree there, too. But with the new players, I actually think something subtly different is going on. I think there's a collective malaise that they caught, virus-like, almost from the moment they landed in Brum, and to extend the analogy, they're past experiences, especially for those new to away from the PL left them oddly "free of resistance." That malaise was there before they arrived. I do think the right leadership could make a difference, but it has to be whole-club leadership. Yes, the buck stops with the manager, but we needed a wide, broad, united sense of leadership. Too late now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted February 18, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Really kind of surprised at the staying power of the occasionally entertaining occasionally nasty Sherwood vs. Garde vs. Lambert vs. whoever discussions. Why is it such an un-put-downable sub-topic? I don't get it. Edited February 18, 2016 by Marka Ragnos 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bobzy Posted February 18, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: I'm not sure there's much evidence to back a lot of that up. To me that just seems like an awful lot of faith in a manager who hasn't been a manager for that long. I hope what we're currently seeing isn't the clear idea of how he wants his team to play because it's negative and incredibly boring most of the time. I would like to believe he's the type of manager who will shape a team to his requirements but have we seen much evidence of that yet? And i'd imagine most managers would demand their players act responsibility but it's one thing demanding something and another getting players to actually do it. At the moment, it's a fairly rare sight to see our players acting responsibility on the pitch. I don't think he should be sacked but I do think an intense review should be held in the summer to determine if he's our best shot of promotion. For me the jury is very much out on if he's the right man to try and bring us back next season. I don't really know quite how much evidence you want for this to be "backed up", but I'll give you the following: - Demand his players act responsibly (drops Grealish, stern telling off. Clearly recognises big talent. Has stated quite honestly where we haven't been good enough, including after a 2-0 win against Norwich.) - Has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play (build up from the back, from a solid base. Quite obviously tries to do this. Very possession orientated.) - Identifies weakness and tries to shape a team to his requirements (Goalkeeper needs replacing, goes for Croatian guy. Lacking goals up top, tries to bring in a striker. Major defensive deficiencies at right back, tries to get Debuchy. Drops Guzan, drops Agbonlahor, calls N'Zogbia out for being exactly what he is. Shaping to requirements might be harder to assess, but we certainly setup one way and try and match the players to do it. Richards moved to RB. Veretout as a weird LW. Wanting to shape team to his requirements?) I'm not really too sure what more evidence you want/would expect after 15 league games in charge. Maybe you expected an entire overhaul of the team with a brand new one purchased? Edit: I also like that "the jury is out on whether he's the right man to bring us back" whilst recognising that he hasn't been here "that long". I'm so incredibly fed up of the short term thinking on here. The guy needs at least a season and a half, as I've said about every other manager (inclusive of Sherwood) and the chance to get his own players in. I'd be bitterly disappointed if the board acted to sack him at season end. I should imagine the more likely scenario would be Garde walking. Edited February 18, 2016 by bobzy 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 12 minutes ago, bobzy said: I don't really know quite how much evidence you want for this to be "backed up", but I'll give you the following: - Demand his players act responsibly (drops Grealish, stern telling off. Clearly recognises big talent. Has stated quite honestly where we haven't been good enough, including after a 2-0 win against Norwich.) - Has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play (build up from the back, from a solid base. Quite obviously tries to do this. Very possession orientated.) - Identifies weakness and tries to shape a team to his requirements (Goalkeeper needs replacing, goes for Croatian guy. Lacking goals up top, tries to bring in a striker. Major defensive deficiencies at right back, tries to get Debuchy. Drops Guzan, drops Agbonlahor, calls N'Zogbia out for being exactly what he is. Shaping to requirements might be harder to assess, but we certainly setup one way and try and match the players to do it. Richards moved to RB. Veretout as a weird LW. Wanting to shape team to his requirements?) I'm not really too sure what more evidence you want/would expect after 15 league games in charge. Maybe you expected an entire overhaul of the team with a brand new one purchased? Edit: I also like that "the jury is out on whether he's the right man to bring us back" whilst recognising that he hasn't been here "that long". I'm so incredibly fed up of the short term thinking on here. The guy needs at least a season and a half, as I've said about every other manager (inclusive of Sherwood) and the chance to get his own players in. I'd be bitterly disappointed if the board acted to sack him at season end. I should imagine the more likely scenario would be Garde walking. Your two last posts are 100% spot on! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 27 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: Really kind of surprised at the staying power of the occasionally entertaining occasionally nasty Sherwood vs. Garde vs. Lambert vs. whoever discussions. Why is it such an un-put-downable sub-topic? I don't get it. well discussions on martin "voldemorte" o'neill took their sweet jesus time to die down. I suspect with us having even less to celebrate on the pitch right now, the recriminations on the blame for who's the best / worst will linger on for some time. ... Speaking of which it's blates all tim boy's fault 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Marka Ragnos said: Really kind of surprised at the staying power of the occasionally entertaining occasionally nasty Sherwood vs. Garde vs. Lambert vs. whoever discussions. Why is it such an un-put-downable sub-topic? I don't get it. I think certain posters like to post something designed exactly to start the arguments all over again. Losing matches helps as it kind of legitimises it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Demand his players act responsibly (drops Grealish, stern telling off. Clearly recognises big talent. Has stated quite honestly where we haven't been good enough, including after a 2-0 win against Norwich.) Well you haven't read what I wrote. A lot of managers will demand that the players act responsibly but that doesn't make it happen, if you can't make it happen then it's no good just demanding it. Grealish hasn't featured yet and we'll see if he can get the best out of him. We haven't been good enough but that hasn't made much difference. Our best player elbows a defender in the face and is suspended for 3 games, Lescott gives up on a chance which allows leicester to score and the whole team showed no responsibility when we suffered our biggest home defeat in around 80 year. Has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play (build up from the back, from a solid base. Quite obviously tries to do this. Very possession orientated.) I didn't say he didn't. I just said I hope this isn't his clear plan for the team because it's negative and boring and hasn't been getting the results we need. - Identifies weakness and tries to shape a team to his requirements (Goalkeeper needs replacing, goes for Croatian guy. Lacking goals up top, tries to bring in a striker. Major defensive deficiencies at right back, tries to get Debuchy. Drops Guzan, drops Agbonlahor, calls N'Zogbia out for being exactly what he is. Shaping to requirements might be harder to assess, but we certainly setup one way and try and match the players to do it. Richards moved to RB. Veretout as a weird LW. Wanting to shape team to his requirements?) Knowing we need a keeper and a striker is something even Tim Sherwood knew. It's something we all know. I can't put much faith in identifying something that is obvious to anyone who has paid the slightest bit of interest in the team this year. It's hardly proof that this is something that will be a strength of his if given more time. I'm not really too sure what more evidence you want/would expect after 15 league games in charge. Maybe you expected an entire overhaul of the team with a brand new one purchased? No that would be daft to expect that. I'm not really too sure how you've got so much faith in a manager who has won 2 games at this club and done absolutely nothing to stop relegation. Edit: I also like that "the jury is out on whether he's the right man to bring us back" whilst recognising that he hasn't been here "that long". I'm so incredibly fed up of the short term thinking on here. The guy needs at least a season and a half, as I've said about every other manager (inclusive of Sherwood) and the chance to get his own players in. I'd be bitterly disappointed if the board acted to sack him at season end. I should imagine the more likely scenario would be Garde walking. I hate the idea that all managers deserve time. You admit yourself that Sherwood didn't. The longer we gave Lambert the worse we got. The longer we gave DOL the worse we got. Mcleish would have got worse as well. Next season is pretty important, we need to get promoted or be built to be promoted the following season. I don't think we risk that just because you think managers should have time and from the little positives we have seen in 15 games. I'm happy to evaluate the situation in the summer once we've seen a bit more of his time here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 4 hours ago, bobzy said: Most of your posting r.e: Garde is masquerading as well-reasoned pieces, but comes across as far too anti-Garde and far too pro-Sherwood. "He didn't inherit a side completely cut adrift... and totally hopeless. He didn't inherit a side that was getting battered every week. He inherited a side that under Sherwood had only lost one game by more than 1 goal." Of course he didn't inherit a side completely cut adrift, only 10 games of the season had been played. However, the same side had lost 8 of them. 8 out of 10! I'm not sure how we've managed to come to the conclusion that the side isn't totally hopeless when the entire season suggests otherwise. However, with absolutely zero additions to the team (in fact, a major loss in Amavi being injured), Garde's team has lost 7 in 15. People seem to focus a lot of energy on pointing out "records" as something important - they simply aren't. If we lost every game we've lost this season 10-0, we'd still be better off if we'd managed to turn some of those defeats into draws. Sherwood's complete ineptitude has left us too far off competing to stay in the league. If he had the same loss record as Garde, but only managed to get draws from the games he lost, we'd be at worst 5 points from safety. But it's not just this simplistic view that can be taken into account. Sherwood utilised Benteke brilliantly last season and had him taken away from him this time round - alongside with other fairly solid players like Delph and Vlaar. However, he had a summer working with the squad to try and get an idea implemented. A style of play. He achieved nothing at all. Garde has had to understand and evaluate the players all over again - and the alarming fact seems to be that some of them just aren't good enough - but, given he's working with the same crop, we currently look a lot more organised. The Liverpool defeat was humiliating in the application given but, again, we actually started the game looking pretty decent. No threat, but pretty comfortable. I agree that most fans thought this squad could compete and lacked a decent manager. I put myself in this boat but have now realised that, actually, it's incredibly unbalanced. I think some of the players are pretty decent but we don't have the players/positions to get the best of out of squad on the whole. You ask yourself "has Garde got the best out of this squad then for me I have to say no" - what were you expecting to happen? What did you think the same squad that lost 8 out of 10 games then lost Amavi to injury (and had to replace with Richardson) were going to achieve? Relegation was always going to be a huge possibility after that start. It's disappointing that we haven't won more games under Garde, I agree, and it's also incredibly disappointing to see our defensive players make the same mistakes over and over. However, this isn't a team with goals in it. The best we could hope for was to become more solid and try to grind out some wins. Under Garde, I feel this is more of a possibility than it has been under any of our recent managers. Miracle worker? No. Best manager in the league? No. Huge failure? No. What he is, for me, is exactly the kind of manager we need. Someone who identifies weaknesses easily and has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play. He's the kind of manager who will shape a team to his requirements (given board backing, lolz) and demand his players act responsibly. Is it worth sacking him to go through all this all over again? Absolutely not. Actually up there with the best posts I've ever read on here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I have to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 22 hours ago, AntrimBlack said: Quotes or guesswork? I think the articles been quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Absolutely spot on bobzy and the crucial point for me is the imbalance in the squad. The lack of any first 11s that make proper sense is the biggest problem on the playing side. You can't play Grealish and Gil together because our midfield isn't physical enough but you can't play with wingers because we don't have any that can defend and we can't play Gestede because our players that can cross are too slow to make the space themselves and our fullbacks aren't good enough to be able to overlap and help create openings without leaving us exposed. We need someone to support Ayew up top but that would leave us with two in midfield, none of which are likely to attack the box so there's too much space between midfield and attack, and a diamond relies on our fullbacks for width and they can't cross and blah blah blah blah blah. some decent if not great individual players but they just don't work as a team. What Garde needed in January was a handful of players to bring a bit of cohesion to the side and he could have had good go at it. Maybe a strong forward with good movement, a power house in defensive midfield, a hard working winger and a goalkeeper that can organise. Doumbia, Sane, Khazri, Kalinic? Edited February 18, 2016 by a m ole 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwj Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 16 minutes ago, dn1982 said: I think the articles been quoted. He means quotes in the article from Garde, Almstadt etc. If there are quotes, they would be printed. No quotes means that they either a) made it up (eg. the journalist just made it up to fill pages for a deadline, not unheard of at the Mail), or more likely \b) heard it through a second or third-hand source. Either way you take it with a grain of salt, you don't really know who's agenda is being played to. Quotes at least give it a basis in reality as the paper can be sued for libel if untrue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, a m ole said: Absolutely spot on bobzy and the crucial point for me is the imbalance in the squad. The lack of any first 11s that make proper sense is the biggest problem on the playing side. You can't play Grealish and Gil together because our midfield isn't physical enough but you can't play with wingers because we don't have any that can defend and we can't play Gestede because our players that can cross are too slow to make the space themselves and our fullbacks aren't good enough to be able to overlap and help create openings without leaving us exposed. We need someone to support Ayew up top but that would leave us with two in midfield, none of which are likely to attack the box so there's too much space between midfield and attack, and a diamond relies on our fullbacks for width and they can't cross and blah blah blah blah blah. some decent if not great individual players but they just don't work as a team. What Garde needed in January was a handful of players to bring a bit of cohesion to the side and he could have had good go at it. Maybe a strong forward with good movement, a power house in defensive midfield, a hard working winger and a goalkeeper that can organise. Doumbia, Sane, Khazri, Kalinic? And this is why I don't understand why anyone has full faith in him or why anyone has decided he's no good for us. He's got such a limited managerial career so far and he's come into such a unique scenario that it's difficult to judge either way how he will go. I can't think of many managers who have come into a situation as bad as ours and joined a club as bad as ours. He doesn't get a free pass because of this but then to be fair to him it's a difficult place for him to show many positive things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 As used to be thrown about when Lambert and Sherwood was here. " Not even Mourinho could get this squad firing". At the time with Benteke, Delph and Cleverley it was utter bullshit. But I've no doubt at the moment, many top managers would struggle with the squad we have and the set up at director level. My Believe is Garde is doing the best he can with the tools he has. We needed signings in January, we knew it, an 100% Garde wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 11 minutes ago, mwj said: He means quotes in the article from Garde, Almstadt etc. If there are quotes, they would be printed. No quotes means that they either a) made it up (eg. the journalist just made it up to fill pages for a deadline, not unheard of at the Mail), or more likely \b) heard it through a second or third-hand source. Either way you take it with a grain of salt, you don't really know who's agenda is being played to. Quotes at least give it a basis in reality as the paper can be sued for libel if untrue. Hence the "apparently" in the sentence!! There'd be no discussion if we only went on fact as we don't get any info from the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 9 minutes ago, DCJonah said: And this is why I don't understand why anyone has full faith in him or why anyone has decided he's no good for us. He's got such a limited managerial career so far and he's come into such a unique scenario that it's difficult to judge either way how he will go. I can't think of many managers who have come into a situation as bad as ours and joined a club as bad as ours. He doesn't get a free pass because of this but then to be fair to him it's a difficult place for him to show many positive things. I'm personally trying to separate what I see as an impossible task on the pitch with the other indicators of a good manager - what he says about matches, his players, how he disciplines them and rewards or punishes performance, press conferences, temper... I don't know, everything else I see I am impressed with and I understand that it doesn't mean it will translate into results if he was allowed to sign a couple of players. I think it's been so long since we had someone with the right attitude off the pitch I think it would be such a shame to not give him the chance in the longer term when allowed to assemble a bit more of a squad. I can understand the line of thought that if he won't get a bit of backing we may as well get a turd-polishing manager instead, but they're just two awful situations I don't even want to contemplate. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, dn1982 said: Hence the "apparently" in the sentence!! There'd be no discussion if we only went on fact as we don't get any info from the club. There are facts, and there are opinions, and both of those are valid. Repeating something that has no basis in fact can easily lead people to believe it, unless it is challenged. Sticking in `apparently' means nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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