Demitri_C Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 42 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said: I think you're getting ahead of yourself. At the moment Garde has got one lucky result (a good organised result yes, but still lucky). How was that lucky? City did hardly anything ok they hit the bar but we deserved a point. I think thats harsh on the players calling it luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarjei Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Just now, dn1982 said: He spoke of a lot more than what's contained in the article including Amavi. The Mail leaks the whole thing out over a few articles. Yes, I noticed that a bit later. Why do it the easy way, when you can do it the hard way and get more clicks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 8 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: How was that lucky? City did hardly anything ok they hit the bar but we deserved a point. I think thats harsh on the players calling it luck tbf citeh could have won that 4 or 5 nil and on another day probably would have done . the players battled and did well but Luck certainly played its part 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 42 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: tbf citeh could have won that 4 or 5 nil and on another day probably would have done . the players battled and did well but Luck certainly played its part 4 or 5 nil? If you class every thing that went towards the goal as a goal then yeah ok but otherwise you are well wide of the mark. It's also hypothetical as you never know what Garde had up his sleeve if we went a goal behind. We kept it tight and would've reacted if the game needed it Garde seems to have more than 1 plan unlike Sherwood. It's surprising how lucky you get when you get the right tactics and work rate into a team. Even if it was all luck we haven't had much go our way this season so far so we deserve a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 9 minutes ago, dn1982 said: We kept it tight and would've reacted if the game needed it Garde seems to have more than 1 plan unlike Sherwood. It's surprising how lucky you get when you get the right tactics and work rate into a team. The first point is hypothetical, Garde had been in charge one game, we have no idea what Garde's plans or tactics would've been. Yes you can make luck, but even so we rode ours against city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 2 minutes ago, dn1982 said: 4 or 5 nil? If you class every thing that went towards the goal as a goal then yeah ok but otherwise you are well wide of the mark. It's also hypothetical as you never know what Garde had up his sleeve if we went a goal behind. We kept it tight and would've reacted if the game needed it Garde seems to have more than 1 plan unlike Sherwood. It's surprising how lucky you get when you get the right tactics and work rate into a team. Even if it was all luck we haven't had much go our way this season so far so we deserve a bit. I'm not talking Savo type shots that clear the bar by 20 foot or even Guzan getting lucky when the ball went through his legs but went for a corner ... I'm thinking specifically De Bruyne missing an open goal , Sterling hitting Guzan in the face with a header , the crossbar at the end .. on another day all those go in ,hence we rode our luck as I say we battled and there was a lot of positives but lets not think we've turned a corner and our safety is guaranteed , we still have a long way to go 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 19, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted November 19, 2015 4 or 5 nil is a stretch. I think they only had 3 shots on target. But yes we rode our luck, but like I've said before, if a team like Man City turn up and play well, you HAVE to have some luck to get a result. They'r emuch better than us. What we have to do is play well enough so that if we do get some luck, we capitalise on it by getting a point (or more), which we did. Had Sherwood been in charge there is no question, in my mind, that we'd have still lost that game, luck or no luck. The luck, in that scenario, would have kept the score to 2 or 3 nil rather than 5 or 6. That's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BOF Posted November 19, 2015 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2015 Before I post, let me say I'm fully in the 'you make your own luck' club and that the 0-0 was a great result AND a vastly improved performance. I've been one of those waxing lyrical about the positives from that match. But... I don't think 4 or 5 nil on any other given day really is a stretch. Not only did we get very very lucky with the 3 gilt-edged shots that Tony has outlined (and yes we know they didn't go in on this particular day, hence the discussion...) but we've seen the effect on this team, in the position they're in, when they do concede. It's far more likely that those 3 goals would have resulted in more goals, rather than resulting in some plan B reaction from Villa. 9 times out of 10, we concede and the flood gates open. Thankfully we held fast. We do have a long way to go. That kind of luck will not continue, but no-one is saying we expect it to. The positives are from the fact that such an unexpected result can be a springboard, it can give belief where there was none. It could be the spark that makes these players believe Garde to be a lucky manager, and that's an intangible placebo that's very hard to manufacture out of thin air. Can't wait to see how they handle themselves at Goodison. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilS Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I agree with that summing up BOF. There were 3 guilt edged chances which if converted could have seen us capitulate. It was a great point for us in the end, and like many have already said I doubt we would have achieved that under Sherwood. However, we need to see more of that before we can think a corner has been turned. Confidence will still be pretty fragile, so it is a case of now trying to build things up from here and avoiding any set backs. Four to Six points in the next couple of games will be a great start to that process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 19, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted November 19, 2015 12 minutes ago, BOF said: I don't think 4 or 5 nil on any other given day really is a stretch. Not only did we get very very lucky with the 3 gilt-edged shots that Tony has outlined (and yes we know they didn't go in on this particular day, hence the discussion...) but we've seen the effect on this team, in the position they're in, when they do concede. It's far more likely that those 3 goals would have resulted in more goals, rather than resulting in some plan B reaction from Villa. 9 times out of 10, we concede and the flood gates open. Thankfully we held fast. But isn't that the point being argued? That we were organised enough so that we held fast and no floodgates were opened? If we're debating hypothetical situations that might have happened once Man City scored as opposed to looking at actual chances created, then you could just as easily argue that scoring one or two goals would have made City comfortable and they'd have seen out an easy victory, rather than tried all the way to the end (like we forced them to do) and so created more chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted November 19, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 19, 2015 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: But isn't that the point being argued? That we were organised enough so that we held fast and no floodgates were opened? If we're debating hypothetical situations that might have happened once Man City scored as opposed to looking at actual chances created, then you could just as easily argue that scoring one or two goals would have made City comfortable and they'd have seen out an easy victory, rather than tried all the way to the end (like we forced them to do) and so created more chances. The only one of the 3 chances that you could say was down to us was the one hitting Guzan's face, because you can say that his positioning is what stopped it. Them hitting the crossbar and De Bruyne's little jig was not down to us. It was dumb luck and I'm very thankful for that dumb luck, but let's call a spade a spade here. We're not trying to downplay the result, and you're right when you say that against the likes of Citeh you need luck, but aren't you kind of agreeing with me when you say that? That it was luck? That's all I'm saying really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: I'm not talking Savo type shots that clear the bar by 20 foot or even Guzan getting lucky when the ball went through his legs but went for a corner ... I'm thinking specifically De Bruyne missing an open goal , Sterling hitting Guzan in the face with a header , the crossbar at the end .. on another day all those go in ,hence we rode our luck as I say we battled and there was a lot of positives but lets not think we've turned a corner and our safety is guaranteed , we still have a long way to go So that's 3 clear cut chances. One was saved one was off target as it hit the bar the only one I think we got lucky with us the De Bruyne one as if he connects properly it's a goal. In a game you will normally always get chances especially against a team of their quality and for me riding your luck is a lot more than 2/3 chances in 90 min. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 42 minutes ago, BOF said: The only one of the 3 chances that you could say was down to us was the one hitting Guzan's face, because you can say that his positioning is what stopped it. Them hitting the crossbar and De Bruyne's little jig was not down to us. It was dumb luck and I'm very thankful for that dumb luck, but let's call a spade a spade here. We're not trying to downplay the result, and you're right when you say that against the likes of Citeh you need luck, but aren't you kind of agreeing with me when you say that? That it was luck? That's all I'm saying really. Dumb luck or poor finishing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted November 19, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 19, 2015 Both. Our dumb luck that they finished poorly. I think people need a refresher on what 'on another day' means 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLN Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Bacuna was through on goal at one point as well. 4-1, 5-1 maybe. If all of City's shots on target had gone in, and then they had another seven shots as well, that also went in. And we scored a couple of own goals towards the end out of confusion, it could have been 12-0. On another day I mean. Then again if you believe when your time is up your time is up, as @tonyh29 does, then by the same token, the only result possible there was a 0-0. Because of the butterfly effect. I liked Henry's point that when you work hard, you get that sort of luck that allows you to grind out a result. Villa worked hard all game and deserved the draw. Although at the same time you could say that Man City deserved to win based on their chances. But also that Villa didn't deserve to lose because of how hard they worked and how organised they were. So I don't know; you might want to wear a hat. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 23 minutes ago, BOF said: Both. Our dumb luck that they finished poorly. I think people need a refresher on what 'on another day' means Can you provide that refresher on what "on another day" means, on another day? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncb Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Pointless discussing luck, look at the goals we conceded against west brom and stoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted November 19, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 19, 2015 22 minutes ago, YLN said: Bacuna was through on goal at one point as well. 4-1, 5-1 maybe. If all of City's shots on target had gone in, and then they had another seven shots as well, that also went in. And we scored a couple of own goals towards the end out of confusion, it could have been 12-0. On another day I mean. Then again if you believe when your time is up your time is up, as @tonyh29 does, then by the same token, the only result possible there was a 0-0. Because of the butterfly effect. I liked Henry's point that when you work hard, you get that sort of luck that allows you to grind out a result. Villa worked hard all game and deserved the draw. Although at the same time you could say that Man City deserved to win based on their chances. But also that Villa didn't deserve to lose because of how hard they worked and how organised they were. So I don't know; you might want to wear a hat. My newsletter still hasn't arrived, and I'm pretty sure I renewed my subscription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimzk5 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 we didn't get "lucky" v city, for me lucky would be city scoring and having it ruled out for being incorrectly offside, that sort of thing. City had chances, didn't take them, sterlings header? Guzan did he's job. Hitting the bar, well the headers off target then, de bruyne trying a fancy back heel? Then he's a prick for doing so. Saying our first point in 7 games was luck is doing a very solid team performance against the probable league winners a disservice Imo. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 5 hours ago, tonyh29 said: tbf citeh could have won that 4 or 5 nil and on another day probably would have done . the players battled and did well but Luck certainly played its part Not sure about that Tone, I dont think City played very well but really City not cause us that many problems in the game itself, I wouldnt say we were lucky in this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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