Popular Post StanBalaban Posted January 24, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, GeneralJazzman said: True you get what you pay for but our scouting and academy is an issue, as with previous points I have made I agree our squad needs additions. But should be aware of needless spending. Signing a player just for the sake of it, as targets aren't available isn't good business or football sense. We needed players under Lambert and we gambled on them paying off, that's a roll of the dice to me, a gamble. How much did Mahrez, Vardy cost Leicester? How much did Scholes, Beckham, the Nevilles cost United? There other examples such as the academy at Southampton that have been productive in recent years. I think the infrastructure that needs improving is our scouting network and our academy. There will be gems out there it can be difficult to get them and bed them. For every Mahrez and Vardy, there are tons more Tonev's and Bowery's. They really are the exception rather than the norm as most of players bought for peanuts in the PL don't get much game time - hence we rarely hear about them. With the new TV deal kicking in at the end of next season, we can't afford to **** about if (when) we go to the Championship. Bounce back at the first attempt and we're a part of that TV deal again. Keep the current starting crop together, get rid of the likes of Sinclair, Gabby, Zog, Guzan, Richardson and Hutton and we'll have a side that's showing it's good enough for the PL albeit missing a striker. It's amazing how the players offering the least are also the ones creating the greatest financial drain on the club. Get that striker now and, whilst we'll still probably go down, we'll go down with a team that has not only gelled but also knows how to win. I made the point in the Relegation Thread that most teams go down because of their form over the entire season. The way that Remi has us setup in the second half of the season shows we're now a tougher team to beat, but toothless at the same time. Get a striker in now and our form will most likely improve. We'll probably still go down, but we'll go down winning (if that's not an oxymoron). That's not something that often happens. Take this manager, that team, with that level of confidence into the Championship and we should really have no excuse not to return at the first attempt. The current core, a goal scorer plus Amavi, Adama, Grealish, Bennett, Gardner, Clark and that's a great team to get back in the PL. Fail to get that striker now and we'll probably go down with a whimper. In a game of fine margins, that might be enough to keep us down there for much longer. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermon Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Remy looking pretty shit today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralJazzman Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: For every Mahrez and Vardy, there are tons more Tonev's and Bowery's. They really are the exception rather than the norm as most of players bought for peanuts in the PL don't get much game time - hence we rarely hear about them. It's amazing how the players offering the least are also the ones creating the greatest financial drain on the club. Fail to get that striker now and we'll probably go down with a whimper. In a game of fine margins, that might be enough to keep us down there for much longer. I do think you are right about the striker, the financial drains and the diamonds in the rough. With better infrastructure it's less risk and more informed decision making when scouting players. The N'Zogbia transfer has been such a drain on us for years now and optimises the financial mistakes we have made. I worry we cannot find that striker we need that wants to come our way. Even on loan, they may want to go to Newcastle, Swansea or Sunderland as it appears they are doing better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacketspuds Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, supermon said: Remy looking pretty shit today He'd fit right in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, GeneralJazzman said: I do think you are right about the striker, the financial drains and the diamonds in the rough. With better infrastructure it's less risk and more informed decision making when scouting players. The N'Zogbia transfer has been such a drain on us for years now and optimises the financial mistakes we have made. I worry we cannot find that striker we need that wants to come our way. Even on loan, they may want to go to Newcastle, Swansea or Sunderland as it appears they are doing better. NZogbia at the time seemed a good signing. Maybe finding out his personality would've swayed the decision but on ability at the time he was worth it. No club gets all there signings right but we have kept changing managers so often that our crap get chance after chance. Gabby would've gone under Houllier and didn't deserve a new contract. I still hope Remi can get a couple in as the confidence is coming back to the team if we added goals to it we'd go down swinging at least. We need a striker desperately so I actually hope Gestede is badly injured as it may force the boards hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StanBalaban Posted January 24, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, GeneralJazzman said: I do think you are right about the striker, the financial drains and the diamonds in the rough. With better infrastructure it's less risk and more informed decision making when scouting players. The N'Zogbia transfer has been such a drain on us for years now and optimises the financial mistakes we have made. I worry we cannot find that striker we need that wants to come our way. Even on loan, they may want to go to Newcastle, Swansea or Sunderland as it appears they are doing better. Scouting players in the hope that you find a "diamond in the rough" is not enough to develop a squad. It's needs to be balanced with proven quality. One could argue that buying many players for under £2m when Lambert was here was a folly almost the equal to buying the likes of N'Zogbia. Finding a bargain is a relative term too. at £7m, Benteke was a bargain. Ashley Young and James Milner were both bargains, and I think that Ayew, Amavi, Gana and Veretout will also prove to be bargains. Dele Alli at £8m is a bargain for Spurs. Tonev, Sinclair, Bowery, Luna are cheap. They are not bargains. If anything they're a false economy as they're a waste of money with little or no return to them. The club need to attempt to recruit the best quality that it can. The argument that strikers may want to go to Newcastle, Swansea or Sunderland is a strange one for two reasons. Firstly, not all 3 of those clubs will necessarily be competing for his signature in the first place, so that may not be an option to him. Secondly, whilst Sunderland in particular may be doing better than us, they're still pretty likely to be going down. There are tons of striker in the PL, Championship and foreign leagues that are worthy of our consideration, and would happily consider coming here. We're not just short of quality in this area, we're short of personnel that can play the role. It's not an option as a business not to have one recruited in this window IMO. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralJazzman Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I have mentioned infrastructure in relation to scouting and academy a few times and this is important in the modern game. Our scouting should explore a range of players across a range of costs. If the player fits the mentality, ability and position the club needs then cost / Resale kick in. Dn1982 has nailed it with changing managers and the type of manager. If we had gone from Houllier to Remi then continuity, but we have not been consistent. Our scouting has changed from manager to manager and the whim of Lerner. Saints get managers to fit their club ideals, we have not been constant with our ideals. At least Doug was consistent. In a players eye we are 10 points adrift where Sunderland etc are much less. It's more probable for them, doesn't mean I agree with it but they may feel they could have more of an impact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomaspg Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 3 hours ago, GeneralJazzman said: Cheers tomaspg, just doubt we will get another Benteke this window sadly. I think Bacuna has shown himself to be good value, same as Westwood. Others have mentioned there are bargains out there, just must be tough to find ones that fit Remi's plan. He seems like Arsene Wegner and won't buy a player who he feels won't add anything to the squad. most likely not, although it would be good with another Benteke we should be happy with an average striker as that would massively improve what we have. just looking at league goals Gestede have 4, ayew 5, thats not even close to being acceptable and an average striker would have more than that by now. We have been looking at Santos so hopefully that comes true, especially now with Gestede injured. No manager should buy something that doesn't add to the squad but at this point improving what we have up front isn't going to be hard, its a matter of taking the wallet out and getting someone in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, GeneralJazzman said: I have mentioned infrastructure in relation to scouting and academy a few times and this is important in the modern game. Our scouting should explore a range of players across a range of costs. If the player fits the mentality, ability and position the club needs then cost / Resale kick in. Dn1982 has nailed it with changing managers and the type of manager. If we had gone from Houllier to Remi then continuity, but we have not been consistent. Our scouting has changed from manager to manager and the whim of Lerner. Saints get managers to fit their club ideals, we have not been constant with our ideals. At least Doug was consistent. In a players eye we are 10 points adrift where Sunderland etc are much less. It's more probable for them, doesn't mean I agree with it but they may feel they could have more of an impact. That's correct. I hate using the term but Villa have never really had a player recruitment 'philosophy' under Lerner. To start off with it was anything Martin wanted, then it was essentially cutting the wage bill under TSM, then it was recruiting young and hungry (and cheap) players under Lambert, then it was getting some experienced players in the ill-fated Lambert last season, and now I have no idea what they are doing. Edited January 24, 2016 by The Fun Factory 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralJazzman Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I guess I don't like the Santos idea as he posted about his release clause. If Benteke did that to engineer his Liverpool move we would be fuming. So that's what troubles me there. The Gestede injury has now made the striker situation far more pressing than before. Before I said Gabby could play a part, by that I mean a couple of goals from the bench at crucial times in a game. The Rudy injury does call for another signing, Just hope we get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, StanBalaban said: For every Mahrez and Vardy, there are tons more Tonev's and Bowery's. They really are the exception rather than the norm as most of players bought for peanuts in the PL don't get much game time - hence we rarely hear about them. With the new TV deal kicking in at the end of next season, we can't afford to **** about if (when) we go to the Championship. Bounce back at the first attempt and we're a part of that TV deal again. Keep the current starting crop together, get rid of the likes of Sinclair, Gabby, Zog, Guzan, Richardson and Hutton and we'll have a side that's showing it's good enough for the PL albeit missing a striker. It's amazing how the players offering the least are also the ones creating the greatest financial drain on the club. Get that striker now and, whilst we'll still probably go down, we'll go down with a team that has not only gelled but also knows how to win. I made the point in the Relegation Thread that most teams go down because of their form over the entire season. The way that Remi has us setup in the second half of the season shows we're now a tougher team to beat, but toothless at the same time. Get a striker in now and our form will most likely improve. We'll probably still go down, but we'll go down winning (if that's not an oxymoron). That's not something that often happens. Take this manager, that team, with that level of confidence into the Championship and we should really have no excuse not to return at the first attempt. The current core, a goal scorer plus Amavi, Adama, Grealish, Bennett, Gardner, Clark and that's a great team to get back in the PL. Fail to get that striker now and we'll probably go down with a whimper. In a game of fine margins, that might be enough to keep us down there for much longer. Hatchet Hollis and co are confusing an anomaly for a trend when they say it's 'not about spending money', implying that they want to adopt a more Leicester or Watford business model. Ultimately, these clubs will exhibit regression to the mean, unless they invest heavily. We needed to have invested heavily in the summer, and we didn't, as far as net spend is concerned, and will have to invest (relatively) heavily in the Championship, if we're shoot right back into the premier league. They really are deluded if they think they can achieve automatic promotion on a shoe string. Edited January 24, 2016 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, GeneralJazzman said: I guess I don't like the Santos idea as he posted about his release clause. If Benteke did that to engineer his Liverpool move we would be fuming. So that's what troubles me there. The Gestede injury has now made the striker situation far more pressing than before. Before I said Gabby could play a part, by that I mean a couple of goals from the bench at crucial times in a game. The Rudy injury does call for another signing, Just hope we get it right. Beggars can't be choosers! If he is good enough and I've no idea if he is get him in as its pennies. He won't be on a big wage either so there wouldn't be a need for relegation reduction clause which is something that'll stop a lot of players wanting to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralJazzman Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 I really hope what Hollis and co mean by their cash comments is about the right signing there will be funds and not to give away money is available to sting us on fees. Which is probably what happened with some players in the summer. Clubs knew we had a pot of £50m and we may not have got great value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralJazzman Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, dn1982 said: Beggars can't be choosers! If he is good enough and I've no idea if he is get him in as its pennies. He won't be on a big wage either so there wouldn't be a need for relegation reduction clause which is something that'll stop a lot of players wanting to come. If he is disruptive, arrogant, upsets team balance / chemistry we may not get any wins. But in the same breath he could be an ideal flash in the pan legend. But our scouts should know that, he could be exactly like Kevin Phillips, Vardy, a late bloomer and very resilient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, StanBalaban said: Scouting players in the hope that you find a "diamond in the rough" is not enough to develop a squad. It's needs to be balanced with proven quality. One could argue that buying many players for under £2m when Lambert was here was a folly almost the equal to buying the likes of N'Zogbia. Finding a bargain is a relative term too. at £7m, Benteke was a bargain. Ashley Young and James Milner were both bargains, and I think that Ayew, Amavi, Gana and Veretout will also prove to be bargains. Dele Alli at £8m is a bargain for Spurs. Tonev, Sinclair, Bowery, Luna are cheap. They are not bargains. If anything they're a false economy as they're a waste of money with little or no return to them. The club need to attempt to recruit the best quality that it can. The argument that strikers may want to go to Newcastle, Swansea or Sunderland is a strange one for two reasons. Firstly, not all 3 of those clubs will necessarily be competing for his signature in the first place, so that may not be an option to him. Secondly, whilst Sunderland in particular may be doing better than us, they're still pretty likely to be going down. There are tons of striker in the PL, Championship and foreign leagues that are worthy of our consideration, and would happily consider coming here. We're not just short of quality in this area, we're short of personnel that can play the role. It's not an option as a business not to have one recruited in this window IMO. I agree with your point of unearthing diamonds but it is dependent on the skill of the scout......We had Tony Barton in our pomp and his record of doing just that, was impressive. because it's difficult, we can't give up on it. The next difficult task is finding a scout like that. (but the irrepressible Uncle Herbert, sacked him as manager for finishing 8th.) perhaps we could find a good scout who has issues with their club, because good scouts are rarely out of work. I can't believe we can't find a finisher. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, TRO said: I agree with your point of unearthing diamonds but it is dependent on the skill of the scout......We had Tony Barton in our pomp and his record of doing just that, was impressive. because it's difficult, we can't give up on it. The next difficult task is finding a scout like that. (but the irrepressible Uncle Herbert, sacked him as manager for finishing 8th.) perhaps we could find a good scout who has issues with their club, because good scouts are rarely out of work. I can't believe we can't find a finisher. I'm actually saying that whilst we should be looking to unearth diamonds, that cannot be our only strategy. It has to be blended with buying proven quality. We also need to reassess exactly what the price of a "diamond" is. The likes of Vardy and Mahrez are the exception, not the rule. I would say that Benteke was a diamond, even though he cost £7m odd quid. Championship clubs are regularly forking out over £5m+ on players. Should we find ourselves in there it cannot be an excuse to be scraping around at low quality buys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomaspg Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 26 minutes ago, GeneralJazzman said: I guess I don't like the Santos idea as he posted about his release clause. If Benteke did that to engineer his Liverpool move we would be fuming. So that's what troubles me there. The Gestede injury has now made the striker situation far more pressing than before. Before I said Gabby could play a part, by that I mean a couple of goals from the bench at crucial times in a game. The Rudy injury does call for another signing, Just hope we get it right. It was a bit of a dick move off santos sure, but if he keeps us up and then moves on in a similar matter id still be happy for the sole reason that we are not in the championship due to him, we have had players come here saying we are a stepping stone before. I agree, we really need someone that can start regularly, Gabby aint that person, he might be able to do a job off the bench if no one else is available even if i have my doubts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, StanBalaban said: I'm actually saying that whilst we should be looking to unearth diamonds, that cannot be our only strategy. It has to be blended with buying proven quality. We also need to reassess exactly what the price of a "diamond" is. The likes of Vardy and Mahrez are the exception, not the rule. I would say that Benteke was a diamond, even though he cost £7m odd quid. Championship clubs are regularly forking out over £5m+ on players. Should we find ourselves in there it cannot be an excuse to be scraping around at low quality buys. I agree it is all relative.....deli Ali @ 8 mill..... Albrighton....Free ? however I have been more convinced of our incompetency in this area as opposed to the difficulty of the task( albeit I see your point) unfortunately for Mr Lerner ....time is not on our side to sign a gem, we need immediate action.....and as close as possible to guaranteed finisher. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralJazzman Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, TRO said: I agree it is all relative.....deli Ali @ 8 mill..... Albrighton....Free ? however I have been more convinced of our incompetency in this area as opposed to the difficulty of the task( albeit I see your point) unfortunately for Mr Lerner ....time is not on our side to sign a gem, we need immediate action.....and as close as possible to guaranteed finisher. Even Craig Gardner has been solid for WBA, hardly great but solid enough. We have lost some academy players in daft circumstances. A friend and I were chatting Friday about whether Weiman would be a good fit under Garde. Who should and could we get first team striker wise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TRO Posted January 24, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted January 24, 2016 I don't know what criteria they use to sign strikers, but for me goals scored in a season alone ,as apt as is may be is too simplistic. In the past we have signed Cascarino when it should have been his partner Sheringham Whittingham when it should have been his partner Walsh we seem to sign strikers who rely too much on service, as opposed to them that can tend to create their own.....quick feet and the ability to get between the lines. its all well and good signing big physical strikers but they usually have a touch of a rapist. There are exceptions of course like Zlatan Ibrahimovic. in recent times we seem to be devoid of appreciating the Brian Littles And Dwight Yorkes. as difficult as it is the repeat those captures we could at least appear to be linked with that sort.....rather than big lumbering gallutes. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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