The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[tinker]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I think the rise is needed yes, but not right now. We're heading into a recession with inflation at 10%. Raising taxes as you head into recession isn't the right time for this.

If we want to get into it further I think progressive sugar tax should also to help fund NHS

That's ok until someone you care about ends up in hospital. The situation is horrendous with heart attacks patients waiting 2-3 hours for ambulances and then sitting in the ambulance waiting for beds to be freed up in A and E. 18 hours my father in law waited before be was allowed on to a ward.

People need to decide what they want , the NHS or private health care. I know what I want and I'm willing to pay taxes to support it , the NHS.

[sidcow]

2 hours ago, The Fun Factory said:

The general election is nearly 2 years away, a lot can happen. A year ago nobody cared about Ukraine and energy bills were normal. 

Can't find it now but I read somewhere this morning it could be April 2024.

Edited October 3, 2022 by sidcow

[markavfc40]

Gone under the radar due to the announcement of 45p tax rate reverse, which is what they would have wanted, but just the 18 billion pound of public service cuts announced today. 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by markavfc40

[ml1dch]

4 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Can't find it now but I read somewhere this morning it could be April 2024.

It can be no later than January 2025. But Governments normally like holding them when people are a better mood, so the later in the year you do it (normally) the more voters reject you. 

[ml1dch]

3 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Gone under the radar due to the announcement of 45p tax rate reverse, which is what they would have wanted, but just the 18 billion pound of public service cuts announced today. 

 

 

Perhaps. But the Sunak wing of the party now has a virtual veto on any party policy that they don't like. The only reason the 45p policy has gone is because enough MPs said they wouldn't support it. 

If they say that they won't vote through this, this will be scrapped as well. Obviously they are Tories, but they're now just Tories who want to keept their seats. 

[The Fun Factory]

9 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

 

Perhaps. But the Sunak wing of the party now has a virtual veto on any party policy that they don't like. The only reason the 45p policy has gone is because enough MPs said they wouldn't support it. 

If they say that they won't vote through this, this will be scrapped as well. Obviously they are Tories, but they're now just Tories who want to keept their seats. 

Exactly. It could be a another U turn if all of the red wall Tory MP's kick off. If this goes ahead then  the levelling up  agenda was obviously a crock of shite.

[Demitri_C]

42 minutes ago, tinker said:

That's ok until someone you care about ends up in hospital. The situation is horrendous with heart attacks patients waiting 2-3 hours for ambulances and then sitting in the ambulance waiting for beds to be freed up in A and E. 18 hours my father in law waited before be was allowed on to a ward.

People need to decide what they want , the NHS or private health care. I know what I want and I'm willing to pay taxes to support it , the NHS.

The biggest issue with the nhs is recruitment. There is shortages everywhere.  You can pump as much money as you want into it but if you dont have enough doctors HCAs or nurses your always going to have this problem.

The answer to this is improve the pay and working conditions whether that means building more hospitals or expansion. The same applies with GPS. Huge crisis

[CVByrne]

38 minutes ago, tinker said:

That's ok until someone you care about ends up in hospital. The situation is horrendous with heart attacks patients waiting 2-3 hours for ambulances and then sitting in the ambulance waiting for beds to be freed up in A and E. 18 hours my father in law waited before be was allowed on to a ward.

People need to decide what they want , the NHS or private health care. I know what I want and I'm willing to pay taxes to support it , the NHS.

It's not a binary decision. I believe a national health service or government paid health service is a fundamental belief of the majority of Europeans. How we fund that and ensure it's an efficient system is where there is debate. I am a believer in transaction taxing the contributors, so for NHS taxes on tobacco, alcohol, sugar. For roads we tax petrol and car tax. We need a carbon tax to help the environment. These taxes change behaviour and generate tax revenue.

People also need to accept Covid has put a massive strain on the NHS and created huge backlogs that will take years for any Government to clear. Even more so when we are in a crisis like we are at present where raising taxes is the wrong thing right now 

[CVByrne]

23 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

 

Perhaps. But the Sunak wing of the party now has a virtual veto on any party policy that they don't like. The only reason the 45p policy has gone is because enough MPs said they wouldn't support it. 

If they say that they won't vote through this, this will be scrapped as well. Obviously they are Tories, but they're now just Tories who want to keept their seats. 

Tories will vote through public sector cuts. They're Tories, it's what they do

[Mark Albrighton]

Maybe they’re now the most popular boys at school.

 

[KentVillan]

16 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

The biggest issue with the nhs is recruitment. There is shortages everywhere.  You can pump as much money as you want into it but if you dont have enough doctors HCAs or nurses your always going to have this problem.

The answer to this is improve the pay and working conditions whether that means building more hospitals or expansion. The same applies with GPS. Huge crisis

Recruitment crises happen for 3 reasons:

1. The pay isn't high enough.
2. The job is perceived as dangerous / unhealthy / too difficult.
3. Shortage of people going through the right training routes.

What the Tories have done is:

1. Reduce real-terms pay
2. Let the Covid situation escalate to the point that many NHS workers were dead, long-term sick, or psychologically traumatised
3. Made it more expensive to train to be a nurse or a doctor, and limited immigration (both student migration, and foreign workers with relevant skillsets)

Points 1 and 3 also feed into point 2. The recruitment crisis makes it progressively harder and more dangerous to work in the NHS.

FWIW, I don't believe an entirely tax-funded NHS works in the context of a country where voters are opposed to high taxes, and the population continues to get older. The solution is surely some kind of French/German style means-tested insurance model, where the poorest get healthcare entirely free, and then middle classes pay capped insurance fees that can't escalate like they do under the US model.

[Stevo985]

34 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

The biggest issue with the nhs is recruitment. There is shortages everywhere.  You can pump as much money as you want into it but if you dont have enough doctors HCAs or nurses your always going to have this problem.

The answer to this is improve the pay and working conditions whether that means building more hospitals or expansion. The same applies with GPS. Huge crisis

You're so close...

[CVByrne]

13 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Recruitment crises happen for 3 reasons:

1. The pay isn't high enough.
2. The job is perceived as dangerous / unhealthy / too difficult.
3. Shortage of people going through the right training routes.

What the Tories have done is:

1. Reduce real-terms pay
2. Let the Covid situation escalate to the point that many NHS workers were dead, long-term sick, or psychologically traumatised
3. Made it more expensive to train to be a nurse or a doctor, and limited immigration (both student migration, and foreign workers with relevant skillsets)

Points 1 and 3 also feed into point 2. The recruitment crisis makes it progressively harder and more dangerous to work in the NHS.

FWIW, I don't believe an entirely tax-funded NHS works in the context of a country where voters are opposed to high taxes, and the population continues to get older. The solution is surely some kind of French/German style means-tested insurance model, where the poorest get healthcare entirely free, and then middle classes pay capped insurance fees that can't escalate like they do under the US model.

I've always been a fan of the German model. 

[sidcow]

2 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I've always been a fan of the German model. 

[mjmooney]

27 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Recruitment crises happen for 3 reasons:

1. The pay isn't high enough.
2. The job is perceived as dangerous / unhealthy / too difficult.
3. Shortage of people going through the right training routes.

4. Brexit 

[ender4]

33 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

 

FWIW, I don't believe an entirely tax-funded NHS works in the context of a country where voters are opposed to high taxes, and the population continues to get older. The solution is surely some kind of French/German style means-tested insurance model, where the poorest get healthcare entirely free, and then middle classes pay capped insurance fees that can't escalate like they do under the US model.

In theory that sounds fine, but you know that once you open that door, within a few years the Tories will have made it exactly like the USA where only the rich can afford treatment and treatment costs 10x what it should really cost.

[markavfc40]

Since 2010 they have purposely been making it not fit for the 21st century. This was always the end game.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by markavfc40

[tinker]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

The biggest issue with the nhs is recruitment. There is shortages everywhere.  You can pump as much money as you want into it but if you dont have enough doctors HCAs or nurses your always going to have this problem.

The answer to this is improve the pay and working conditions whether that means building more hospitals or expansion. The same applies with GPS. Huge crisis

I agree, loads have left due to a few issues one of them the stress and in the case of doctors , consultants , surgeons and such like the pension ceiling has meant they don't add any or much value to their pension pots after a certain point and this is forcing them to leave. I know of 3 gp's and a consultant who have all retired in the last 12 months and this has been the reason.

 

[cyrusr]

10 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Since 2010 they have purposely been making it not fit for the 21st century. This was always the end game.

 

Absolute horses**t.

Having come back from Florida at the weekend, I can safely say that insurance based health insurance only ever serves the medical companies and not the people. 

Firstly spoke to people out there about health. One I was speaking to in a queue for a ride, he's paying over $1000 a month for health insurance. I explained that for the NHS its roughly $300 for our payments (NI contribution - although personally a little higher) per month and he couldn't fathom it being so much cheaper. He also explained it still took ages to see anyone. Anecdotal I know but wasn't different from what the others were doing.  

Secondly, on TV most adverts were for medical products for problems that I had never heard of and clearly cost a lot of money. Whilst inviting you to speak to your doctors about it, it clearly would either cost a lot or bump up your premium on insurance. I would suspect that most of these products are unnecessary as well and likely to cause problems further down the line (the amount of caveats at the end of the adverts are farcical). 

The medical companies make an absolute killing out of the insurance process and it is normal people who fund it. Anyone who suggests that this is the way forward only has the big business interests at heart. 

[bickster]