The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, Genie said:

More police on the streets (the Tories are saying that).

Except there are about 10 more than 2010 (which was the previous peak under... ) They chopped 20k, then promised to add them back.. Thats just comparing the actions of Labour and Tory Parties in office

15 minutes ago, Genie said:

They’re basically saying they’ll tax oil and gas companies more to pay for all our issues.

The Tories aren't saying that are they? It was always a one off windfall tax THAT WAS LABOUR POLICY that the Tories argued against until the very last minute when they enacted it

17 minutes ago, Genie said:

Cut NHS waiting lists (the Tories are saying that too).

How are they doing with that?

Are the Tory Party committed to scrapping their own Trade Union laws? Thought not

Are the Tory Party renationalising the railways?

19 minutes ago, Genie said:

It’s basically more of what we have but about 5% less shit. And that’s if they deliver. 

It really isn't

[Genie]

6 minutes ago, bickster said:

It really isn't

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Lowest living standards in about 40 or 50 years and the opposition are proposing a bit of tinkering rather than the major overhaul that is needed.

Not addressing the “B” word elephant in the room either as they’re too gutless. 

It pisses me right off that but there’s at least 2 other threads I could rant about Labour in.

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

Not addressing the “B” word elephant in the room either as they’re too gutless. 

I agree with you on that, which is one of the two reasons I'm not voting for them, where I disagree is that Labour are the same as the Tories or are Tory lite, they really aren't. They aren't remotely close to being that, they are fundamentally and significantly different. The idea that they are is peddled by the people who support Corbyn and his ilk, it's a left-wing insult and stands up to very little scrutiny (and is a typical tactic of said left wingers)

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

I agree with you on that, which is one of the two reasons I'm not voting for them, where I disagree is that Labour are the same as the Tories or are Tory lite, they really aren't. They aren't remotely close to being that, they are fundamentally and significantly different. The idea that they are is peddled by the people who support Corbyn and his ilk, it's a left-wing insult and stands up to very little scrutiny (and is a typical tactic of said left wingers)

Who said anything about Corbyn or left wings?

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

Who said anything about Corbyn or left wings?

I did.They are the reason the narrative you are using exists

Anyway, wrong thread for this discussion

[Genie]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

I did.They are the reason the narrative you are using exists

Anyway, wrong thread for this discussion

Not for me, I’m just reading it as it is and for me it’s not different enough to the current absolute shitshow. 

[ml1dch]

25 minutes ago, Genie said:

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Lowest living standards in about 40 or 50 years and the opposition are proposing a bit of tinkering rather than the major overhaul that is needed.

What's the policy that they could propose that would get you really excited? 

Or what is it that would turn "tinkering" into an "overhaul"?

[fruitvilla]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

They’re basically saying they’ll tax oil and gas companies more to pay for all our issues.

While I am not against this per se, I think we should be aware this will be passed on to the consumer and those of us that have pensions will be affected too. The 'profits' go to new project development or are paid to shareholders. The shareholders, I suppose, could be classed into two groups. Relatively few rich people and the rest of us.

[bickster]

18 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

While I am not against this per se, I think we should be aware this will be passed on to the consumer and those of us that have pensions will be affected too. The 'profits' go to new project development or are paid to shareholders. The shareholders, I suppose, could be classed into two groups. Relatively few rich people and the rest of us.

Do you have any evidence to support this idea? I ask because we've already hit petrochemical extractors with a windfall tax twice and they had record profits each time

[fruitvilla]

7 minutes ago, bickster said:

Do you have any evidence to support this idea? I ask because we've already hit petrochemical extractors with a windfall tax twice and they had record profits each time

What have your fuel prices done?

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

What have your fuel prices done?

Come down since they were at nearly £2 a litre. Gas and electricity also reducing

[chrisp65]

30 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

While I am not against this per se, I think we should be aware this will be passed on to the consumer and those of us that have pensions will be affected too. The 'profits' go to new project development or are paid to shareholders. The shareholders, I suppose, could be classed into two groups. Relatively few rich people and the rest of us.

This is the same theory that suggests hitting water companies with fines that change behaviour will somehow slow down their roll out programme to stop pumping shit directly in to rivers. A roll out programme that appears to be at some point over the next 125 years. They pump the shit, take the fine, pay the bonuses and the dividends.

Sometimes you have to pay for what you want, or you end up paying for what you didn’t want.

We had a state producer of oil in the North Sea, but it was privatised. It was bought by BP, once a majority state owned company. Then we are scared to tax companies that used to be state owned in case it impacts our pension portfolio. Yet, we weren’t scared of selling them off. At some point, a **** huge penny is going to drop that we can’t privatise everything and then pay them money to stay here and then be scared of taxing them and then tell people we can’t afford a state pension. This managed decline of the aspirations of ordinary people by both main Westminster parties is just so sad. 

What colour would you like your living standards devalued in to help save the international corporations? We have scum blue, or, at least we’re not them red.

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

What have your fuel prices done?

Not relevant. I can legitimately buy fuel at almost pre-Ukraine prices. Fuel pump prices have little relevance as they are run by separate companies to the extractors. There is vast profiteering at the pump from the forecourt companies but that is an entirely different issue. Windfall tax doesn’t affect forecourt companies.

[fruitvilla]

Just now, blandy said:

Come down since they were at nearly £2 a litre. Gas and electricity also reducing

That of course is good for the common taxpayer. Won't bother the ultra-rich one bit.

[fruitvilla]

26 minutes ago, bickster said:

Not relevant.

So the supply chain, extraction, refining and storage costs are not reflected in the forecourt pricing?

Now I don't know the ins and outs of companies like BP but almost certainly they will have a large degree of integration between extraction, refining and storage/transport. They likely have agreements with competitors to manage fuel production and sales efficiently. It appears BP does not have a refinery in the UK ( at least according to their website). 

My point - there is a fair degree of integration within companies and with competitors.

The industry is cyclical. The ups have to pay for the downs.

edit ... I am not saying don't tax ... just that it should be over a longer time perspective than the electorate's attention span.

Edited May 1, 2023 by fruitvilla

[Genie]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

What's the policy that they could propose that would get you really excited? 

Or what is it that would turn "tinkering" into an "overhaul"?

Rejoin the EU or some other alignment with Europe on Trade and FoM. This should reduce food costs and reduce inflation as well as boost GDP and fill vacancies in many sectors including the NHS.

Removal of VAT on household energy bills. Cut fuel duty.

Create a safe way for immigrants to apply to settle without having to cross the channel in a small boat.

Process existing application in weeks rather than months/years to get them out of hotels.

Scrap the ridiculous Rwanda policy.

Scrap or reform the house of lords.

Scrap proposed increase of pension age.

This is the kind of stuff I’d like to see. Not this pissing about with shit like breakfast clubs as one of the headline policies. It’s pathetic. 

 

 

 

[LondonLax]

5 minutes ago, Genie said:

Rejoin the EU or some other alignment with Europe on Trade and FoM. This should reduce food costs and reduce inflation as well as boost GDP and fill vacancies in many sectors including the NHS.

Removal of VAT on household energy bills. Cut fuel duty.

Create a safe way for immigrants to apply to settle without having to cross the channel in a small boat.

Process existing application in weeks rather than months/years to get them out of hotels.

Scrap the ridiculous Rwanda policy.

Scrap or reform the house of lords.

Scrap proposed increase of pension age.

This is the kind of stuff I’d like to see. Not this pissing about with shit like breakfast clubs as one of the headline policies. It’s pathetic. 

 

 

 

I thought Labour were proposing a lot of those? Not the EU bit but some of the others. 

[bickster]

18 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

So the supply chain, extraction, refining and storage costs are not reflected in the forecourt pricing?

 

nope

The cost of fuel entering the market is determined by the exchange in the Netherlands.

The cost at the pump bears no relation to the current costs of what you mention. This is highlighted by a forecourt very close to my house (2 actually). AN independent (which means higher costs!) is selling petrol and diesel at £1:38.9. per litre Price parity between the two main types. 300 yards up the road is a main branded garage (though still technically an independent company but tied by brand to an extractor), diesel is $1:59.9 per litre and unleaded petrol is £1:45.9 per litre. The prices for both fuel types after refining at the market is roughly equal in the current market, the price at the pump is wildly different and well over what the raw markey price is

The two cheap forecourts are selling fuel at just above the pre-war prices, which is just about correct for the market price of the refined product.

What seems to be happening is that pre-war the supermarkets undercut the forecourts to encourage people onto their property, they no longer see the need to do that and have decided to increase their profits at the pump and the forecourt companies are just pricing their product a few pence above the supermarkets because that is what people are used to. They are both making much bigger margins than previously as a result.

So, definitely a No

[bickster]

Anyway, can we get this thread back to the Tory Party please

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

It isn’t. That’s not “the cause”. There’s 2 parts to that particular problem. Or maybe 3.  Firstly the tories slashed the environment agency budget, which means that instead of “the state” monitoring water quality and pollution, it either goes complete unchecked, or the suppliers self monitor. The second is [tories] “ok, we know there’s tons of pollution and we know people are cross about it, so we need to set targets and timing to end the polluting…but if we do that, the costs, which are huge, will fall on the consumers… so let’s not, y’know, be too hasty…”

Essentially it’s lack of effective regulation, which is absolutely vital. Southern Water, which is one of the major culprits- they’ve paid no dividends since 2016, I think it is. They are spending billions on improvements.

I think my point is, it’s not the threat of fines, or the presence of them that will magically stop a creaking system from struggling to cope with rainfall, leaks, broken infrastructure, insufficient reservoirs, farm run off and all the rest. While I wasn’t in favour of privatisation of water at all, the core problem is not who owns the pipes and reservoirs and treatment plants, or who operates them, it’s ultimately a complete absence of long term coherent national planning. The threat of nationalisation actually makes the problem worse, because “why would I, as CEO of X water company commit n billion quid to upgrades and improvements if in a year’s time the government is simply going to nationalise us? - I’d be better off  keeping the spending down this year, make profit as a result and get a nice bonus and see the share price rise”.

£65 Billion in dividends paint out since privatisation in 1989 across water companies.

Southern Water paid nearly a million in bonuses to their Board in 2021. Their CEO salary before bonus was £500,000.

But it wasn’t a jab specifically at water companies alone, more the whole stinking fish of privatised state assets we’re now afraid of upsetting because ‘pensions’.