Davkaus Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Then look at the Presidential system (it doesn't have to be the American one), if you vote in a President for 4 or 5 years, you are stuck with him or her, regardless of how they are doing. Under our system, the party can act (as we've seen) to remove the PM. Even under the Presidential System, there is also usually a Prime Minister and the big question is how much power do you give to each. (that varies a lot) Indeed, there are balances to this, but as we've seen over the Atlantic, when impeachment becomes a purely partisan process, because winning is more important than the integrity of public office, there's little hope of true checks and balances. I don't know what the solution is, other than being quite sure it involves the second coming of Guy Fawkes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 41 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I know, that's why it was a hypothetical question. It's not impossible to imagine this antidemocratic process, is it? We essentially have the same, except if that leader pisses off, the party get to repeat the process without the inter-party head-to-head, potentially allowing our leader to be selected by their party and not face the ballot box for several years. No they didn't, they won a landslide majority, obtaining 56.2% of representatives, despite only winning 43.6% of the vote. There's no flawless electoral system, but ours is particularly rubbish. I was being a little flippant about the hypothetical. But I don't know that snap election every time a leader gets ousted is ideal either. And the Presidential system also has massive flaws. I did not know that about the Tory vote majority. I am both surprised and schooled. Thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 2 hours ago, bickster said: As a republican, I also realise we need a head of state and that’s where I become conflicted because ultimately that does lean to a presidential model I'm not sure of the context here. There are (at least) two presidential models, presidential heavy - eg the US system (ughhh!) and light where a president with minimal political power gets elected/agreed to by parliament, is a figurehead but with a touch more clout than the monarchy say. Otherwise it is business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 8, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 8, 2022 In a PR system we’d have coalitions every time like they do in most European countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 9 hours ago, Davkaus said: A lot of people argue that a presidential system isn't the answer, we wouldn't want President Boris, etc, but it's got to be better than this An elected president would replace the role of the Queen (and would start taking a more active role in political affairs). The Prime Minister is the leader of the lower house, the US equivalent would be Nancy Pelosi under their presidential system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 5 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: In a PR system we’d have coalitions every time like they do in most European countries. Not necessarily. New Zealand vote on a PR system and the current New Zealand Labour in power won a majority in their own right. It is more definitely more common to need a coalition though. Because you don’t have local members representing constituents, just a national pool of politicians, small parties are much more likely to get their vote share represented with an MP so there is less reason to be in a big party. On the other hand I would suggest that the major parties that you typically find in ‘first past the post’ countries are themselves coalitions in all but name. If you moved to PR Labour would immediately split into ‘Blairite’ Labour and ‘Corbyn’ Labour and run as two different parties, knowing they would both get their rightful share of politicians regardless. The Tories would do the same with pro and anti Brexit parties etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 9, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2022 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: If you moved to PR Labour would immediately split into ‘Blairite’ Labour and ‘Corbyn’ Labour and run as two different parties, This may happen much further into the future but absolutely wouldn't happen straight away. I'm not sure it ever would. The Labour brand is so strong the fight to own it would go on forever (much like now) You're also ignoring the sense of ownership of the party from the Unions and it’s members Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 It's gonna be muti millionaire silver spoon Sunak isn't it. At least he ain't running away from the debt I guess, but I doubt he will change much, just be less drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Out of them all i think wallace would be the best bet, he has served so you would hope he has some decency in him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) Sunak has some nerve. Speaking of offering people the same opportunities his family had as he helped strip them away. Saying let's rebuild the economy like he hasn't been directly incharge of it for the last 3 years. He wants to restore trust and rebuild integrity from a man who would replace the first criminal PM with a person who committed the exact same crime, supported the same lies and who's campaign video is littered with bs and gaslighting. There isn't a good choice in the Tory party, but this word removed can **** right off. Edited July 9, 2022 by Straggler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 1 hour ago, bickster said: This may happen much further into the future but absolutely wouldn't happen straight away. I'm not sure it ever would. The Labour brand is so strong the fight to own it would go on forever (much like now) You're also ignoring the sense of ownership of the party from the Unions and it’s members Possibly, I’ve no crystal ball but would be much easier to purge a warring faction under PR. You have a party list put up nationally, you don’t have ‘popular local member x’ who you struggle to remove. The leader just has to put the members they don’t agree with lower on the list than the ones they do get on with and that group are dropped from the party at the next election. Presumably though those wayward members would rather go into an election at the top of a party list for their own party than at the bottom of a list for a legacy party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 9, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2022 41 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Out of them all i think wallace would be the best bet, he has served so you would hope he has some decency in him He's not even sure if he wants the job as he values his family life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Just now, bickster said: He's not even sure if he wants the job as he values his family life He’d like his skeletons to remain in the cupboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 9, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2022 Just now, LondonLax said: Possibly, I’ve no crystal ball but would be much easier to purge a warring faction under PR. You have a party list put up nationally, you don’t have ‘popular local member x’ who you struggle to remove. The leader just has to put the members they don’t agree with lower on the list than the ones they do get on with and that group are dropped from the party at the next election. Presumably though those wayward members would rather go into an election at the top of a party list for their own party than at the bottom of a list for a legacy party. This is the Labour Party you're talking about, there's no way they'd give the Leader that much power to choose the order of the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 9, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Genie said: He’d like his skeletons to remain in the cupboard. I'm not sure he has many skeletons tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, bickster said: I'm not sure he has many skeletons tbh There's the tweet from 2015 doing the rounds where he praises Corbyn's decency. I believe that's grounds for banishment in some Conservative Associations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, ml1dch said: There's the tweet from 2015 doing the rounds where he praises Corbyn's decency. I believe that's grounds for banishment in some Conservative Associations. I don’t know why famous people don’t just delete all their old tweets once a year or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrchnry Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 I think its clear that the media are backing Rishi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 9, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2022 1 minute ago, mrchnry said: I think its clear that the media are backing Rishi. I doubt they have that much sway over Tory MPs (They will over the membership). There's a lot to play for and lots of twists and turns yet. We don't even know the full list of candidates even. Sunak not even guaranteed to get to the final 2 It looks like Braverman will be the ERG candidate, Baker announcing he's not standing because she is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 9, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9, 2022 3 hours ago, LondonLax said: An elected president would replace the role of the Queen (and would start taking a more active role in political affairs). The Prime Minister is the leader of the lower house, the US equivalent would be Nancy Pelosi under their presidential system. Not always. In Poland there’s a PM and a leader of the lower house. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts