Davkaus Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Just now, Demitri_C said: Nothing personal "but your wrong about eveything" Sounds pretty personal and offensive too me. Its pretty sad to be honest Thing is, I was literally just engaging with the content of you posts, you're the one who started making it about the poster rather than the substance of the post. And I was joking, no offence intended, honestly - I just disagree, and I was debating in good faith, not arguing for the sake of it. We get it, you think they should cause less disruption. But if they were on strike for 1 day, wouldn't you still be angry about cancelled operations? I'm not sure what you expect them to do that could possibly have any effect without inconveniencing people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, bickster said: Unless of course, you are wrong about that too Well i am not on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Well i am not on this one There’s every chance the pay and terms you have in your job now were as a result of some industrial action in the past. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Just now, Davkaus said: Thing is, I was literally just engaging with the content of you posts, you're the one who started making it about the poster rather than the substance of the post. And I was joking, no offence intended, honestly - I just disagree, and I was debating in good faith, not arguing for the sake of it. We get it, you think they should cause less disruption. But if they were on strike for 1 day, wouldn't you still be angry about cancelled operations? I'm not sure what you expect them to do that could possibly have any effect without inconveniencing people. You thought you would take the piss in the leeds thread, then every post that touches on criticising anyone other that the tory party you jump on then start taking digs. Just like the "nothing personal" post You could have said "nothing personal i just dont agree with alot of the posts" (this is a forum after all) but you chose your words rather lamely its a absolute delibrate dig. But if that turns you on you crack on, very sad. Something you might wanna work on. Anyway to respond to your point there is a massive difference between 1 in 3, as instead of 30 tcis getting cancelled we have 100. You tell me where i am suppose to put these 100 patients when we are already struggling for capacity. Easy for you to say it dont make a difference when you dont have to do this kind of thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 21, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2022 It IS SUPPOSED TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE It’s a strike its supposed to inconvenience people its supposed to make it harder for people how many times 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 I don't really want to derail things by a public spat between us, so I'll keep it purely on topic other than to say that the previous joke was a tongue in cheek joke when you seemed to be suggesting that I'm singling your posts out - I'm not. I'm just posting in a thread I'm interested in, and replying to posts I disagree with. I've got no interest in following you around the forum arguing with you, but it's a small place, and we often have different opinions. I'll nip the pisstaking in the bud because I didn't mean to cause any genuine offence, I thought it was an obvious joke among friends. Anyway: 1 minute ago, Demitri_C said: Anyway to respond to your point there is a massive difference between 1 in 3, as instead of 30 tcis getting cancelled we have 100. You tell me where i am suppose to put these 100 patients when we are already struggling for capacity. Obviously 100 people has more impact, but where would you put the 30 people? Would you still oppose the strikes? What about if it's 40 people? 50? The point I'm making is that I'm not sure there's any level of industrial action that you'd support if it caused a single cancelled operation, because I get the impression you don't think their fight can justify causing any impact to any number of your patients - and that's a valid view, I'm just trying to figure out where you do draw the line. Quote Easy for you to say it dont make a difference when you dont have to do this kind of thing Literally didn't say that. Not sure how it can be any clearer than Stefan's point 11 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I mean you continue to complain that the strikes are impacting people when it’s been explained many times that that’s literally the point of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 21, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2022 If it was nurses striking, as you've mentioned that you think they're in a worse position, and 3 days of operations got cancelled, would your views here be the same or different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 21, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: If it was nurses striking, as you've mentioned that you think they're in a worse position, and 3 days of operations got cancelled, would your views here be the same or different? Which is predicted to happen in the not too distant future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, bickster said: Which is predicted to happen in the not too distant future Hadn't read about that, but tbh, they'd probably bring the system to its knees by simply working to rule. I'd be surprised if they actually withdraw entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted June 21, 2022 Author Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2022 44 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: This is a very severe strike and it looks like they wont be getting what they want anyway. So whats it achieved for them? Would the unions be striking if it was their mother, father, son or daughter in these positions? To be clear on a few things, it's not "the Unions" going on strike. It's employees of the Rail companies. Yes they collectively bargain with their employers via being members of a Union (the RMT), but it isn't some knobber in a suit with a chip on their shoulder holding Companies to ransom and inconveniencing a ton of commuters - it's working people who are really concerned, with good reason, that their jobs are going to be axed, that their terms and conditions of employment are going to be worsened and that their standard of living is taking yet another hit. When they go on strike, they lose their pay for those days - that's not something anyone does lightly, and only as a last resort. They probably won't get everything they want, but they will almost certainly get some of what they want, which they wouldn't get unless they went on strike. These are not highly paid workers with cushy jobs getting shirty about not much at all, it's train cleaners, ticket office staff, railway safety workers, train stewards and the like. Whenever anyone goes on strike, the job that they do goes un-done on that day(s) and there are consequences for them, their employer and customers of their employers business. That applies whether it's NHS staff striking (e.g. Junior Doctors), Nurses, Train and tube workers, Engineers, Teachers...whoever. And when that happens, society generally looks at it, looks at the adverse impacts, looks at the situation the workers are in and makes a judgement as to where their sympathies lie and where the responsibility for the breakdown in the Industrial relations lies. In this instance a hell of a lot of people have a view that the Government is significantly to blame, because ultimately they control the railways and they are the ones imposing on the Companies to cut jobs, give way below inflation pay rises, if any. On the flip side there are all kinds of arcane practices which are not for this age and which need to go, to bring rail up to the standards and efficiency it should be. The workers, while not well paid get pretty decent pension arrangement and can retire, I believe, at 60 on full pension. The volume of rail travel has plummeted and not recovered (yet), they were kept on through the pandemic (and did good work). There's room for more talking and give and take, but it's definitely the case (for me) that it seems like the Gov't wants these strikes as yet another diversion from the utter sh*tshow they are making of everything - they want to try and somehow pretend it isn't them that are primarily to blame, and somehow persuade people it is Labour's fault. It isn't. It's the Tories' fault 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 43 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I don't really want to derail things by a public spat between us, so I'll keep it purely on topic other than to say that the previous joke was a tongue in cheek joke when you seemed to be suggesting that I'm singling your posts out - I'm not. I'm just posting in a thread I'm interested in, and replying to posts I disagree with. I've got no interest in following you around the forum arguing with you, but it's a small place, and we often have different opinions. I'll nip the pisstaking in the bud because I didn't mean to cause any genuine offence, I thought it was an obvious joke among friends. Anyway: Obviously 100 people has more impact, but where would you put the 30 people? Would you still oppose the strikes? What about if it's 40 people? 50? The point I'm making is that I'm not sure there's any level of industrial action that you'd support if it caused a single cancelled operation, because I get the impression you don't think their fight can justify causing any impact to any number of your patients - and that's a valid view, I'm just trying to figure out where you do draw the line. Literally didn't say that. Not sure how it can be any clearer than Stefan's point I oppose strikes that have an impact significantly on people like this just to make my position clear. Nurses working conditions are much worse ans they get paid significantly less. In their case it would be more understandable for those reasons as they tend to care about their patients not just bring most places to their knees If anything what this strike demonstrates is more people work from home now and eventually the only ones it will effect its people like nhs staff as they cant park on site due to limited space. So its inconveniencing the people we really dont want to the most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 19 minutes ago, blandy said: To be clear on a few things, it's not "the Unions" going on strike. It's employees of the Rail companies. Yes they collectively bargain with their employers via being members of a Union (the RMT), but it isn't some knobber in a suit with a chip on their shoulder holding Companies to ransom and inconveniencing a ton of commuters - it's working people who are really concerned, with good reason, that their jobs are going to be axed, that their terms and conditions of employment are going to be worsened and that their standard of living is taking yet another hit. When they go on strike, they lose their pay for those days - that's not something anyone does lightly, and only as a last resort. They probably won't get everything they want, but they will almost certainly get some of what they want, which they wouldn't get unless they went on strike. These are not highly paid workers with cushy jobs getting shirty about not much at all, it's train cleaners, ticket office staff, railway safety workers, train stewards and the like. Whenever anyone goes on strike, the job that they do goes un-done on that day(s) and there are consequences for them, their employer and customers of their employers business. That applies whether it's NHS staff striking (e.g. Junior Doctors), Nurses, Train and tube workers, Engineers, Teachers...whoever. And when that happens, society generally looks at it, looks at the adverse impacts, looks at the situation the workers are in and makes a judgement as to where their sympathies lie and where the responsibility for the breakdown in the Industrial relations lies. In this instance a hell of a lot of people have a view that the Government is significantly to blame, because ultimately they control the railways and they are the ones imposing on the Companies to cut jobs, give way below inflation pay rises, if any. On the flip side there are all kinds of arcane practices which are not for this age and which need to go, to bring rail up to the standards and efficiency it should be. The workers, while not well paid get pretty decent pension arrangement and can retire, I believe, at 60 on full pension. The volume of rail travel has plummeted and not recovered (yet), they were kept on through the pandemic (and did good work). There's room for more talking and give and take, but it's definitely the case (for me) that it seems like the Gov't wants these strikes as yet another diversion from the utter sh*tshow they are making of everything - they want to try and somehow pretend it isn't them that are primarily to blame, and somehow persuade people it is Labour's fault. It isn't. It's the Tories' fault Yeah i appreciate alot of that. I have not once said they shouldnt stand up for themselves but i just find the manner and the levels of this was OTT. Timings bad too where we seeing whats happening at airport Alot of the objections on here i would wager it none of this has had any direct impact on them today. Only person who has been brave enough to say is AshVilla. The government is shambles said that so many times no defending them in any capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 4 hours ago, AshVilla said: These strikes are disgraceful. My mom had an important operation cancelled a month ago which was rearranged for this week and has now been told it can't go ahead because they can't be certain all the staff will be in place due to the train strikes and it's been delayed by another month. Gov’t are disgraceful for causing these strikes, not the rail workers for holding them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 21, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, Demitri_C said: Yeah i appreciate alot of that. I have not once said they shouldnt stand up for themselves but i just find the manner and the levels of this was OTT. Timings bad too where we seeing whats happening at airport Alot of the objections on here i would wager it none of this has had any direct impact on them today. Only person who has been brave enough to say is AshVilla. The government is shambles said that so many times no defending them in any capacity You should be angry at the government letting the situation get as far as a strike as opposed to the people holding the strike. It's not like they've decided to have a strike in the spur of the moment. Your anger is directed at the wrong people Edit: snap @Ingram85 Edited June 21, 2022 by Stevo985 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: You should be angry at the government letting the situation get as far as a strike as opposed to the people holding the strike. It's not like they've decided to have a strike in the spur of the moment. Your anger is directed at the wrong people Edit: snap @Ingram85 The thing is stevo im holding all parties responsible not just the government. Its just a massive shame its come to this and the ones that suffer are the innocent ones like ashvillas mum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Just now, Demitri_C said: The thing is stevo im holding all parties responsible not just the government. Its just a massive shame its come to this and the ones that suffer are the innocent ones like ashvillas mum Bloody Greens and Starmer! Causing these strikes! **** me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 21, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: The thing is stevo im holding all parties responsible not just the government. Its just a massive shame its come to this and the ones that suffer are the innocent ones like ashvillas mum Do you mean political parties or parties as in both side of the debate, for want of a better word. Either way I'm not sure why. The people striking don't want to strike. It's their absolute last resort. I might be wrong but as I understand it there has been no willingness to come to the table and negotiate from the other parties. If there had then there wouldn't be a strike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: Do you mean political parties or parties as in both side of the debate, for want of a better word. Either way I'm not sure why. The people striking don't want to strike. It's their absolute last resort. I might be wrong but as I understand it there has been no willingness to come to the table and negotiate from the other parties. If there had then there wouldn't be a strike Do we know whats been said in the meetings between them? This is key for me, have the bosses made some compromises? Or they stubbornly refusing everything? I dont know im genuinely asking as i cant see anything apart from one side blaming the other. It would be helpful if the workers can make public what was offered if anything at all gives us a better understanding of what the breakdown of talks were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 21, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: I oppose strikes that have an impact significantly on people like this just to make my position clear. Having a significant impact on people is the exact reason for a strike So you're against strikes essentially? It's a valid position but if everyone was like you we'd still have no women voting, race inequality and the Soviet Union. Edited June 21, 2022 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 21, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 21, 2022 So there’s this annoying trend here that people like going on strike? it’s unpaid, in a time where people are already broke and it makes people actively dislike you think about that, the reasons not to do it and they still do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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