The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[Genie]

6 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think price is going to be effective enough in terms of driving change, I think ultimately we'll need legislative changes - perhaps a law with a date at which you can no longer sell a new petrol (or diesel) powered car - or an initial restriction for a few year to engines on new cars being no larger than one litre.

I'm not sure that will happen, because, to Tory this back up - we're in a world of "let the market decide" and the lobbyists of the major energy and car companies are going to want to squeeze the last of the value out of petrol and diesel that they can.

 

There is already a law in place to ban new sales of petrol and diesel cars by 2030

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

There is already a law in place to ban new sales of petrol and diesel cars by 2030

Well that'll do it then - at some point between 2030 and 2040 - you'll have less petrol cars and less places to fuel them - that'll be much more effective than making petrol more expensive.

(Do we have faith in that remaining a fixed date?)

 

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

If we are serious about making a move away from fossil fuels they really need to be more expensive, not cheaper. 

You seem to be getting pushback for this comment but it is clearly right. There are many ways to incentivise change, not only increasing prices, but if prices substantially decline (£1.80 to £1.20 is a 33% fall) then it will clearly delay people from switching.

That doesn't mean the solution is to abandon people who need financial help, but to target it differently. For instance, a cut in VAT (a regressive tax) helps everyone, as everyone needs to purchase VAT-eligible items, while not everyone drives an ICE car.

[markavfc40]

Sunak has made a conscious decision today to do next to f all to help those with the least all so he can be in a position in two years to give away plenty of pre election sweeteners. Millions are going to go through hell due to that choice. Tories being Tories I know but the depths of the heartlessness still shock me at times. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said:

You seem to be getting pushback for this comment but it is clearly right.

It is demonstably wrong. Have a look out of the window for proof

Petrol stations have people queuing at the pumps right now because the price dropped 6p. They aren't going to change their habits with anything other than utterly punitive fuel taxes for a problem that will be on the way out in five years tops

Most cities apart from that there overpriced infrequent service London, do not have the public transport infrastructure to cope with people abandoning their cars,

Cheap (relatively) electric cars will be available in five years, they will be cheaper than their petrol equivalents and widely available

The reliance on fossil fuels for personal transportation will be gone in a relatively short time

Meanwhile all those bloody big boats will be sailing around the world causing more pollution than cars as they do right now

[HanoiVillan]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

It is demonstably wrong. Have a look out of the window for proof

Petrol stations have people queuing at the pumps right now because the price dropped 6p. They aren't going to change their habits with anything other than utterly punitive fuel taxes for a problem that will be on the way out in five years tops

This is a weird argument, because the second line is you accepting that people are in fact sensitive to prices, which is what I'm saying.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is a weird argument, because the second line is you accepting that people are in fact sensitive to prices, which is what I'm saying.

It's not a weird argument at all. If they were that sensitive to prices, they'd have abandoned their cars weeks ago and wouldn't be going out of the house in the middle of the evening to save 27p a gallon

In their heads they need a car to go about their everyday lives, they'll buy the fuel because they need to, they'll do it at the cheapest price they can

The need for the car is greater than the hassle of living without it. They are getting fuel tonight because of that, price sensitivity comes into it but nowhere near as much as you seem to think it does

 

[Xela]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't know - if we do it's passed me by.

 

Yep. Ban on selling ICE cars by 2030. Ban on selling hybrids by 2035. 

I'm not against EV cars, i quite like the look of some of them but there are lots of people who live in flats, or without off street parking, that make owning an EV, a completely unattractive proposition at the minute. I've no doubt tech will improve in order to face some of these challenges in the next few years. 

ICE cars will be around for another 20-30 years IMO as people transition to EV, or more likely learn to live without a car. 

[HanoiVillan]

9 minutes ago, bickster said:

It's not a weird argument at all. If they were that sensitive to prices, they'd have abandoned their cars weeks ago and wouldn't be going out of the house in the middle of the evening to save 27p a gallon

In their heads they need a car to go about their everyday lives, they'll buy the fuel because they need to, they'll do it at the cheapest price they can

The need for the car is greater than the hassle of living without it. They are getting fuel tonight because of that, price sensitivity comes into it but nowhere near as much as you seem to think it does

 

Older studies of quite aggregated data tended to show little effect of price changes on vehicle usage, but as we have been able to use less aggregated data (such as from credit/debit card transaction records), it has become clear that short-run price movements absolutely do have a significant impact on vehicle usage.

In the long run, of course it is true that electric vehicles will win out both because they will be and probably already are cheaper, with the higher sticker price offset by lower refuelling and maintenance costs, and because we're making ICE vehicles illegal eventually. But in the short run, there is plenty of reason to think that a decline in the price of fuel - especially a decline of 33% as Genie was hypothesising - would lead to people consuming more petrol.

[foreveryoung]

It may be great and green to have a EV car. But by the time 2030 hits they will be no cheaper to run than a small economical petrol or diesel car. If you think the cost of them will come down, your dreaming, unless you are going to buy one with old technology. The new ones with longer ranges, which have new battery technology are going to be circa 40k+for a basic small model. Then there will be a road tax, no doubt, an they are not the cheapest to insure, due to most accidents, even relatively light ones, may to have the battery replaced for safety reasons.

 

[bickster]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

Older studies of quite aggregated data tended to show little effect of price changes on vehicle usage, but as we have been able to use less aggregated data (such as from credit/debit card transaction records), it has become clear that short-run price movements absolutely do have a significant impact on vehicle usage.

And did they factor how many of those people that stop using their cars because of the high prices started using taxis? The journey still often takes place just not with the same person behind the wheel

[Genie]

As soon as EV cars are in the majority they will get taxed in some way.

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

And did they factor how many of those people that stop using their cars because of the high prices started using taxis? The journey still often takes place just not with the same person behind the wheel

I'm not aware of a study that addresses that in particular, though from a purely theoretical perspective it would seem fairly odd behaviour to respond to even fairly significant moves in pump prices by taking taxis everywhere, which is clearly significantly more expensive than a journey in a personal car.

We do have evidence that suggests that declining fuel prices in 2015 and 2016 led to a big drop in public transport usage in American cities, though, so there seems to be an effect between transport choices there.

[choffer]

The contrivance is just so offensive. He’s just like the rest of us, you know? I mean who among us doesn’t have a photographer who takes pictures of us doing totally normal things?

 

[tinker]

Independent article......oh dear 

P&O was able to legally sack 800 staff without informing the government because of a law change brought in by Chris Grayling, it has emerged

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, tinker said:

Independent article......oh dear 

P&O was able to legally sack 800 staff without informing the government because of a law change brought in by Chris Grayling, it has emerged

 

The **** EU has a lot to answer for.

[ml1dch]

8 hours ago, choffer said:

The contrivance is just so offensive. He’s just like the rest of us, you know? I mean who among us doesn’t have a photographer who takes pictures of us doing totally normal things?

 

"Darling, could you pop out and pick me up a new car? Yah, need it for a photo-op. No, nothing too pricy."

[Genie]

Congestion charge must cost him a few quid.

[lapal_fan]

12 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

It may be great and green to have a EV car. But by the time 2030 hits they will be no cheaper to run than a small economical petrol or diesel car. If you think the cost of them will come down, your dreaming, unless you are going to buy one with old technology. The new ones with longer ranges, which have new battery technology are going to be circa 40k+for a basic small model. Then there will be a road tax, no doubt, an they are not the cheapest to insure, due to most accidents, even relatively light ones, may to have the battery replaced for safety reasons.

 

Not really true.

You can buy a 64kw KIA E-Niro for 35k, that's a family sized SUV with a battery of nearly 300 miles - I've ordered one (won't be seeing it though) through work. 

There's also going to be a huge roll out of charge points - petrol stations will slowly become charge stations - rumours are there will be "wireless charge points" developed, maybe including stretches of motorway - but that's not for decades most likely. 

Progress is slowww

[Genie]

1 minute ago, lapal_fan said:

Not really true.

You can buy a 64kw KIA E-Niro for 35k, that's a family sized SUV with a battery of nearly 300 miles - I've ordered one (won't be seeing it though) through work. 

There's also going to be a huge roll out of charge points - petrol stations will slowly become charge stations - rumours are there will be "wireless charge points" developed, maybe including stretches of motorway - but that's not for decades most likely. 

Progress is slowww

I saw something at work a couple of years back of wireless charging pads for your driveway. Just park over it and bingo, it’s charging. No messing with a cable.

They will eventually bed them under the tarmac / blocks so you don’t even see them.