ender4 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 minute ago, bobzy said: No, it's until April 2023. (Although as @bickster says, that's the current position...) Then what happens? I thought its meant to be ongoing to pay for social care every year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 9 minutes ago, blandy said: You may have seen in the news today, @MakemineVanilla, but it seems that walking disaster Chris Grayling of that there "the tories" used a statutory instrument (changing the law without a vote in parliament) to essentially let P&O off from having to adhere to the law I referenced earlier this week. P&O able to legally sack 800 staff without telling government ‘because of Chris Grayling law change’ | The Independent Thanks, for the clarification: I definitely know who to hate for this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picicata Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, ender4 said: Then what happens? I thought its meant to be ongoing to pay for social care every year So did I. Surely one year of an extra 1.25% won't be enough to cover an ever ongoing/ increasing bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 I was of the understanding it was to for 3 years and set to bring in £36b. (The track and trace failure cost £37b, interesting huh). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 One of the key reasons for having fuel duty in the first place is that driving specifically creates negative externalities. Cutting fuel duty helps with the cost of living, but it does so by *encouraging driving*, which we generally don't want to encourage. Another problem with cutting fuel duty is that by encouraging driving, you create greater demand which helps keep prices higher for longer. I'm not saying not to do anything about the cost of living, but a cut to income tax or to VAT would have helped more people in a less damaging way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 19 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: One of the key reasons for having fuel duty in the first place is that driving specifically creates negative externalities. Cutting fuel duty helps with the cost of living, but it does so by *encouraging driving*, which we generally don't want to encourage. Another problem with cutting fuel duty is that by encouraging driving, you create greater demand which helps keep prices higher for longer. I'm not saying not to do anything about the cost of living, but a cut to income tax or to VAT would have helped more people in a less damaging way. I’m not sure fuel going from £1.80 to £1.75, when it should be around £1.25 is going to have people making trips they wouldn’t have made at £1.80. If they’d have cut the price of a litre of fuel in half then fair enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Just now, Genie said: I’m not sure fuel going from £1.80 to £1.75, when it should be around £1.25 is going to have people making trips they wouldn’t have made at £1.80. If they’d have cut the price of a litre of fuel in half then fair enough. Everything makes a difference at the margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, picicata said: So did I. Surely one year of an extra 1.25% won't be enough to cover an ever ongoing/ increasing bill I believe they are just using the NI Tax rate for now as its logistically easier. A new social care Tax will be created that we all pay into Edited March 23, 2022 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 29 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: One of the key reasons for having fuel duty in the first place is that driving specifically creates negative externalities. Cutting fuel duty helps with the cost of living, but it does so by *encouraging driving*, which we generally don't want to encourage. Another problem with cutting fuel duty is that by encouraging driving, you create greater demand which helps keep prices higher for longer. I'm not saying not to do anything about the cost of living, but a cut to income tax or to VAT would have helped more people in a less damaging way. I always think that the necessity of the individual to drive is a glaring example of "externalization"; that is to say, how businesses maximise their profits by off-loading costs onto their employees or society as a whole. Business gets access to a bigger pool of labour and the worker bears the cost, while the government benefits from the tax-burden they impose on the worker, which they justify by blaming the worker for the fact that he/she needs to drive to continue their employment. Now is that fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 11 minutes ago, Harkanon said: I believe they are just using the NI Tax rate for now as its logistically easier. A new social care Tax will be created that we all pay into Oh another prediction... It will be 2.25% to start with which will replace the 1.25% NI and 1% IC they will have taken away and it will again cost more to implement and run the three taxes than the new tax brings in just after we've got the money back in for the previous changes to NI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Oh another prediction... It will be 2.25% to start with which will replace the 1.25% NI and 1% IC they will have taken away and it will again cost more to implement and run the three taxes than the new tax brings in just after we've got the money back in for the previous changes to NI oh fo sho, they **** you at the drive through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 37 minutes ago, Genie said: I’m not sure fuel going from £1.80 to £1.75, when it should be around £1.25 is going to have people making trips they wouldn’t have made at £1.80. If they’d have cut the price of a litre of fuel in half then fair enough. Why should it be £1.25? It used to be about this price 10 years ago until the US and Canada developed their shale oil industry and flooded the market with cheap fossil fuels again. If we are serious about making a move away from fossil fuels they really need to be more expensive, not cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, LondonLax said: If we are serious about making a move away from fossil fuels they really need to be more expensive, not cheaper Not really at all The alternative to fossil fuel driven vehicles needs to be cheaper As is being proved right now, increasing the price of the fuel does not curb usage (by very much) Reducing the price of electric vehicles is what will drive the change. From the reports I've been reading recently, we are only a few more years away from this being the reality. Electric cars are becoming more commonplace by the day and the tipping point where they become cheaper than Petroleum driven vehicles is almost approaching Our largest fleet provider to drivers is aiming to be all electric by the middle of next year and she's half way there already. She actually has a waiting list of drivers who are prepared to pay the premium she's charging for an electric vehicle (and that was the case before the current rises) It's the driving platform price that will dictate the switch not fuel prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 23, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 minute ago, bickster said: Reducing the price of electric vehicles is what will drive the change I think it matters how you define “price”, because, say, annual running costs + ownership costs are perhaps what (IMO) may play a significant part. Plus the availability and ease of topping up the tank/battery, plus the, as you say, price to buy one. Range is also a big factor with EVs for many people. I think you’re right that a headline price drop will drive change, as it does with most things, but as the cynics amongst us might suspect, maybe it’ll be more the case that fossil fuel vehicles will increase more in price, rather than EVs dropping much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 20 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Why should it be £1.25? It used to be about this price 10 years ago until the US and Canada developed their shale oil industry and flooded the market with cheap fossil fuels again. If we are serious about making a move away from fossil fuels they really need to be more expensive, not cheaper. This is a different topic entirely, but should refers to where you’d expect it to be based on the last 15 or so years. The post you quoted was about whether a £3 saving on a full tank of fuel would encourage more trips that people wouldn’t otherwise make, imo no, it won’t make any meaningful difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 I don't think price is going to be effective enough in terms of driving change, I think ultimately we'll need legislative changes - perhaps a law with a date at which you can no longer sell a new petrol (or diesel) powered car - or an initial restriction for a few year to engines on new cars being no larger than one litre. I'm not sure that will happen, because, to Tory this back up - we're in a world of "let the market decide" and the lobbyists of the major energy and car companies are going to want to squeeze the last of the value out of petrol and diesel that they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 minute ago, blandy said: I think it matters how you define “price”, because, say, annual running costs + ownership costs are perhaps what (IMO) may play a significant part. Plus the availability and ease of topping up the tank/battery, plus the, as you say, price to buy one. Range is also a big factor with EVs for many people. I think you’re right that a headline price drop will drive change, as it does with most things, but as the cynics amongst us might suspect, maybe it’ll be more the case that fossil fuel vehicles will increase more in price, rather than EVs dropping much. Range is already not really a problem, if range were a problem we wouldn't have a fleet owner completely changing he fleet of over 300 vehicles to electric, paying for every driver with the help of grants to have a charging point at home and having a waiting list months long for drivers wanting to change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said: I don't think price is going to be effective enough in terms of driving change, I think ultimately we'll need legislative changes - perhaps a law with a date at which you can no longer sell a new petrol (or diesel) powered car - or an initial restriction for a few year to engines on new cars being no larger than one litre. DOn't we already have that (or much of it)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 23, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 Just now, bickster said: Range is already not really a problem Depends on the user. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, bickster said: DOn't we already have that (or much of it)? I don't know - if we do it's passed me by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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