The Fun Factory Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Genie said: Boris will say no and no. Then when it emerges inevitably there was, and he did it’s caught red handed as a liar. Like a 2 year toddler. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, bickster said: Polls currently suggest that already isn't the case Polls might suggest that. Too many are ingrained in the “no better options” mantra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 So what's the general consensus on Rishi Sunak? Would he be worse, better or the same level as Boris as PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, ender4 said: So what's the general consensus on Rishi Sunak? Would he be worse, better or the same level as Boris as PM? I don’t think worse is a realistic proposition is it? Even as bad is hard to imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 12, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, ender4 said: So what's the general consensus on Rishi Sunak? Would he be worse, better or the same level as Boris as PM? Austere, his politics are the opposite of what he's done as Chancellor, the rumours were that he voted against the Furlough Schemes etc in Cabinet even though it was his job to put them in place. His politics are not what people think they are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 12, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, Genie said: I don’t think worse is a realistic proposition is it? Even as bad is hard to imagine. He'd actually be far worse for the common man. Ignore the personas, Sunak is a far more hardline lean state Thatcherite than Johnson ever was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, bickster said: He'd actually be far worse for the common man. Ignore the personas, Sunak is a far more hardline lean state Thatcherite than Johnson ever was. Plus he actually supported Brexit because he thought it was a good idea, not the terrible-idea-that-means-the-Tory-members-will-like-me that Johnson thought it was. So he's clearly a crayon-munching simpleton as well. Edited January 12, 2022 by ml1dch 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 17 minutes ago, ender4 said: So what's the general consensus on Rishi Sunak? Would he be worse, better or the same level as Boris as PM? I think he’d be a lot more competent than Boris, or any of the other leading Tory figures. Whether that’s a good thing or not depends on your perspective I guess! Personally I think he’s the only candidate Starmer would need to fear at the polls. But he’s a blank slate at the moment and his popularity might drop once he has to spell out what he’s actually in favour of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 12, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted January 12, 2022 27 minutes ago, ender4 said: So what's the general consensus on Rishi Sunak? Would he be worse, better or the same level as Boris as PM? Johnson is an old school Tory whose convictions come secondary to whatever his pleasures are at that precise moment. He's a confidence trickster who just charms and lies his way through things. Sunak is a dyed on the wool Thatcherite who is actually a competent politician. The question therefore is essentially do you prefer to be killed by the incompetence of a libertine who doesn't give a **** about you, or by an assassin whose entire being is set on harming you as precisely as possible? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 Who wants to admit they were played by the posh clearing in the woods? Who wants to admit they were played by the posh clearing in the woods twice? Get angry with the machine that pushed him to the top. Stay angry after his departure. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 This reputation that Sunak has for dead-eyed political competence - as stated in several posts above - might be right, but it might not. He has a thin resume, he's been an MP for less than 7 years and attending cabinet for about 2. Much of his popularity is down to giving people money in various ways, a policy which he neither thought of (we were just copying the French) nor seemingly particularly wanted to do. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: This reputation that Sunak has for dead-eyed political competence - as stated in several posts above - might be right, but it might not. He has a thin resume, he's been an MP for less than 7 years and attending cabinet for about 2. Much of his popularity is down to giving people money in various ways, a policy which he neither thought of (we were just copying the French) nor seemingly particularly wanted to do. I might be wrong (maybe I just missed it) but I've not seen him involved in any of the "war on woke" stuff this government has been doing. I think part of the air of competence comes from the fact that he seems more interested in actually governing than grandstanding about whatever hot-button social issues might be happening outside the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 12, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: I think part of the air of competence comes from the fact that he seems more interested in actually governing than grandstanding about whatever hot-button social issues might be happening outside the window. The problem is that the actual policies are so against the desires of the general public that the grandstanding, the war on woke, all of that stuff is an absolute necessity as a distraction and a voting device, if they campaigned on their actual policies, those that serve their real constituents in the banks and boardrooms, they'd never get into power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: The problem is that the actual policies are so against the desires of the general public that the grandstanding, the war on woke, all of that stuff is an absolute necessity as a distraction and a voting device, if they campaigned on their actual policies, those that serve their real constituents in the banks and boardrooms, they'd never get into power. I think it's needed by people who know they can't pull off the economic competence look, which is Rishi's strong suit - I think he might be an unconvincing culture warrior in the same way Boris is unconvincing at being a competent "normal" politician. My money is on Rishi not going heavy on the anti-woke stuff if he runs, and just coming up with a bunch of sensible-sounding but broadly unexciting economic policies (potentially with an emphasis on investment in Northern infrastructure?) and then just beating Starmer in a bland-off because he has a stronger starting position. I don't actually think the culture war stuff is particularly effective beyond the rabid Tory base, and may well turn off just as many people as it turns on now people have moved on from Brexit and Corbyn is no longer in charge of Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: I might be wrong (maybe I just missed it) but I've not seen him involved in any of the "war on woke" stuff this government has been doing. I think part of the air of competence comes from the fact that he seems more interested in actually governing than grandstanding about whatever hot-button social issues might be happening outside the window. Firstly, I think it's pretty common that the Chancellor doesn't engage much in the non-financial parts of the politicking around the government's program. In general, it's important for the Chancellor to be slightly above the partisan mudfighting so that they appear more 'credible' to the international business and finance community. Secondly, and relatedly, if he was some sort of dead-eyed political terminator destined to sweep all before him, then he would have no trouble clearing the first hurdle, an internal Tory party leadership contest, which is likely to be contested by several well-known figures. In building a coalition of Tory MPs, and then winning the preferences of Tory members, are they looking for 'an air of competence' from someone 'interested in actually governing', or are they in fact looking for someone who does get more involved in the partisan fray? It's worth remembering that Chancellors often don't rise to the leadership, or struggle when they do. Philip Hammond left office with the parliamentary party viewing him as an alien imposition who wanted to sabotage Brexit; George Osborne disappeared to pursue other interests, too tightly tied to the fallen Cameron. Alistair Darling didn't stand for the leadership in 2010, quitting frontbench politics instead. Gordon Brown did take over the leadership - nearly unopposed - and then failed first to call an election and then to win one. Ken Clarke failed to win the leadership on three separate occasions; Norman Lamont was a failure who got kicked upstairs. You have to go back to John Major in 1990 to find a Chancellor winning a leadership contest and then subsequently winning an election. This may not be completely unrelated to the points in the paragraphs above. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 12, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 12, 2022 14 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: I might be wrong (maybe I just missed it) but I've not seen him involved in any of the "war on woke" stuff this government has been doing. I think part of the air of competence comes from the fact that he seems more interested in actually governing than grandstanding about whatever hot-button social issues might be happening outside the window. Or he's been keeping his nose as clean as he can but we have had... Musicians (notorious lefties in Tory Eyes) should retrain and get a different job... The NHS must do better, now its been given extra money to reduce the backlog (caused by many years of underfunding by...) ... It's the same agenda, he just says it better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, bickster said: Or he's been keeping his nose as clean as he can but we have had... Musicians (notorious lefties in Tory Eyes) should retrain and get a different job... The NHS must do better, now its been given extra money to reduce the backlog (caused by many years of underfunding by...) ... It's the same agenda, he just says it better. That's true, I'd forgotten those comments. But I wouldn't say they are culture war stuff exactly (maybe the musician one is a bit, because as you say they are notorious lefties) so much as just articulating standard Tory economic policies. I think there's a slight difference there. 40 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Firstly, I think it's pretty common that the Chancellor doesn't engage much in the non-financial parts of the politicking around the government's program. In general, it's important for the Chancellor to be slightly above the partisan mudfighting so that they appear more 'credible' to the international business and finance community. Secondly, and relatedly, if he was some sort of dead-eyed political terminator destined to sweep all before him, then he would have no trouble clearing the first hurdle, an internal Tory party leadership contest, which is likely to be contested by several well-known figures. In building a coalition of Tory MPs, and then winning the preferences of Tory members, are they looking for 'an air of competence' from someone 'interested in actually governing', or are they in fact looking for someone who does get more involved in the partisan fray? It's worth remembering that Chancellors often don't rise to the leadership, or struggle when they do. Philip Hammond left office with the parliamentary party viewing him as an alien imposition who wanted to sabotage Brexit; George Osborne disappeared to pursue other interests, too tightly tied to the fallen Cameron. Alistair Darling didn't stand for the leadership in 2010, quitting frontbench politics instead. Gordon Brown did take over the leadership - nearly unopposed - and then failed first to call an election and then to win one. Ken Clarke failed to win the leadership on three separate occasions; Norman Lamont was a failure who got kicked upstairs. You have to go back to John Major in 1990 to find a Chancellor winning a leadership contest and then subsequently winning an election. This may not be completely unrelated to the points in the paragraphs above. Ah, thanks, some interesting points there. It's true it might not be what the Tory party is after - they're famous for wanting to win, but then they did pick Michael Howard and IDS for leaders back in the day so maybe that doesn't always hold. Regarding the Chancellors, I'd say Sunak is in an unusually strong position because he's not particularly close to the PM and the PM he's serving has got himself into trouble relatively quickly but the upcoming election is still relatively winnable. Brown, Osborne and Hammond basically came as a package with their respective PMs so it sort of makes sense they'd fall from grace at the same time (or in Brown's case, Blair handed him the keys just before New Labour ran out of road). Sunak may well go the same way but I think he's been dealt a good hand that means he might be able to defy gravity on this occasion. Edited January 12, 2022 by Panto_Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 12, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: But I wouldn't say they are culture war stuff exactly (maybe the musician one is a bit, because as you say they are notorious lefties) so much as just articulating standard Tory economic policies. I think there's a slight difference there. No, I don't think there is. That's what the Culture War is about, attacking the institutions they don't want to fund and attacking the supporters of those institutions It really does boil down to the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 hour ago, ender4 said: So what's the general consensus on Rishi Sunak? Would he be worse, better or the same level as Boris as PM? I think that Sunak is the evil that lies below the ice, I think that of Patel, Gove, Raab, Hancock aswell but pretty much all for different reasons. Anyone who genuinely believes in the Conservative core politics is a problem for me, as above some of the current crop are just rich and therefore happen to fit into the party, ultimately looking after themselves. I disliked him at the time but the only one I have seen and seem to stand is Rory Stewart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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