The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[chrisp65]

Whatever happened to Jeremy Corbyn?

I was expecting some questions on steel at the last PMQ's but all the questions were used up on an english regional issue. But then, you won't see english labour actually standing side by side with an english doctor, in case someone somewhere today can claim they have actually suffered due to the strike. Bad PR, death. That's over thinking. Just as it's under thinking for Corbyn's representative on earth Andrew Fisher to suggest the steel crisis was 'good' for labour, the little shit.

 

[Jon]

Seems he's dammed for not playing the game, and dammed for playing the game.  Oh well 

[Jon]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154178968058872&substory_index=0&id=330250343871

I know you guys  (Mr crisp  and Mr blandshire ) maybe don't do Facebook?  But you miss out on loads of interesting info like this.  Jez  HAS  joined a protest today. .. 

[chrisp65]

You're right. I don't do facebook. I do do that twitter. The local Labour party around here don't like Corbyn very much.

I do understand not playing the game and I really support that idea, and I really want to 'like' Corbyn.  As a kid I had a flirt for a few years with being a leftie, so I could easily vote for a proper labour party now, 

[tonyh29]

23 hours ago, blandy said:

I mean this Doctor's strike, overwhelmingly has public support and the public side with the Docs

I wonder if the public actually have any idea what the strikes are about though ?  other than headline attacks on Hunt and wails of save our NHS  , how many of the overwhelming majority have actually bothered to look into the whole issue ?

I did a fair bit of reading on it , it won't surprise you to find out that I don't on the whole support them , the view being pushed around in the media is kind of one sided ... Hunt's proposal may not be the solution but the BMA demands mean they are equally as culpable

I drove past some strikers today picketing at St Peter's Hospital near me with honk for support placards ... needless to say I didn't honk ..but I didn't give them the finger either so I must have a little sympathy for them  

[blandy]

I think things like this doctor's interview are more than enough to inform most people.

[tonyh29]

32 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think things like this doctor's interview are more than enough to inform most people.

so the view of one doctor with an agenda is all the public need to make an informed decision ... Ok , lucky we aren't trusting the public with anything important like a referendum on Europe or something  .... oh  wait

but , you've kinda proved my point really

 

[meregreen]

I thought she was very good. Put over her case very well, and didn't look smug while she did it.

[tonyh29]

2 minutes ago, meregreen said:

I thought she was very good. Put over her case very well, and didn't look smug while she did it.

to start with  she was only really countering the claims that the strikes would cause deaths which isn't the argument I raised about the public understanding what the strike is all about 

she says I can't believe we are here (as in on strike)  but most of the BMA demands were met ( as I understand it )   , yet she blames Hunt , where is the blame on the BMA  ..  she didn't even mention their part in all this 

And then she goes on about patient safety , even though Doctors hours are being reduced as part of the new contracts .. Ultimately these strikes are about  money , don't try and pin it on patient safety  whilst accusing the other side of rhetoric about , erm patient safety

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, meregreen said:

I thought she was very good. Put over her case very well, and didn't look smug while she did it.

Exactly. I suppose it shouldn't be surprising, but just about every Doctor interviewed by TV or Radio has put across their viewpoint coherently and calmly and with an obvious degree of passion about the NHS and caring for people.

The politicians (particularly Jeremy Hunt) have come across as calculating, deceitful / spinning and interested in their own careers. Stuff like "the Union has no right to Veto a manifesto commitment" - I mean that's bollex on so many levels.

Firstly not a single person from the Junior Docs side has said "we don't want a 7 day NHS" (which is what the manifesto said the Gov't were going to introduce). They've said 2 things on that - 1. We already work 7 days a week and 2. If you want to provide the exact same level of cover across all 7 days, but with only the same number of staff, then it'll make the level of service on any given weekday worse, and we're already overstretched. Oh and 3. imposing a contract on us which introduces more anti social working whilst leaving the overall pay bill unaffected is unfair and it particularly penalises women.

I haven't heard a single argument from a politician as to why the Doctor's case is "wrong" it's all been "they shouldn't go on strike"  type of stuff plus a load of basically lies about the doctors. They're utterly shameful the tories.

[chrisp65]

I'm loving Hunt's line, we put it in the manifesto, so now we have a duty to the majority that voted for it, to do it. Comedy gold.

But anyway, if it's balanced neutral observations from an expert you're after, here's Frankie Boyle...

Quote

I sympathise a little with Hunt – he was born into military aristocracy, a cousin of the Queen, went to Charterhouse, then Oxford, then into PR: trying to get him to understand the life of an overworked student nurse is like trying to get an Amazonian tree frog to understand the plot of Blade Runner.

 

[Xann]

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

to start with  she was only really countering the claims that the strikes would cause deaths which isn't the argument I raised about the public understanding what the strike is all about 

she says I can't believe we are here (as in on strike)  but most of the BMA demands were met ( as I understand it )   , yet she blames Hunt , where is the blame on the BMA  ..  she didn't even mention their part in all this 

And then she goes on about patient safety , even though Doctors hours are being reduced as part of the new contracts .. Ultimately these strikes are about  money , don't try and pin it on patient safety  whilst accusing the other side of rhetoric about , erm patient safety

That's completely wrong/skewed.

She obviously answered every question put to her, and that started off on deaths. She's right not to blame the BMA, which is representing her and her colleagues and their point of view.

Working hours are not being reduced, that's a major part of their concern. How can you increase full cover to 7 days with the same number of doctors and at the same time reduce their hours? It's impossible. The money element comes from the Gov't side. At the moment they're in a mess because NHS trusts are short of permanent staff so are paying agency staff loads of money to fill the gaps. So we've got not enough NHS people to do what's needed even now, a "promise" to expand full cover to 7 days a week, with no new doctors and no increase to the pay bill. Use your noggin.

 

[tonyh29]

42 minutes ago, blandy said:

She's right not to blame the BMA, which is representing her and her colleagues and their point of view.

that's Fair enough , except in response to my post that enquiring if most people had  bothered looking into both sides  , you posted that video with the line I think things like this doctor's interview are more than enough to inform most people

 

so your case for only one side being seen consists or  errrrm presenting one side

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

that's Fair enough , except in response to my post that enquiring if most people had  bothered looking into both sides  , you posted that video with the line I think things like this doctor's interview are more than enough to inform most people

so your case for only one side being seen consists or  errrrm presenting one side

I was responding to your line that

Quote

" I wonder if the public actually have any idea what the strikes are about though ? "

I thought that the video kind of covered broadly what the strikes were about in fairly clear terms (and was an example of informing people, in IMO an impressive way). But yes, I accept that (obviously) they refer to the/a Doctor's perspective, refuting the claim it's all about money for them.

The tory line about about the Union trying to bring down the Gov't and how the Union has radicalised the doctors and all that is just an insult to the intelligence.

The video doesn't go into Jeremy hunt's co-authorship of a book about privatising the NHS or general tory nastiness  - it's just a straightforward "this is why we're striking" piece of information.

Like a banner said I saw "Do you trust 54000 doctors or Jeremy Hunt".

[tonyh29]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

The tory line about about the Union trying to bring down the Gov't and how the Union has radicalised the doctors and all that is just an insult to the intelligence.

The video doesn't go into Jeremy hunt's co-authorship of a book about privatising the NHS or general tory nastiness  - it's just a straightforward "this is why we're striking" piece of information.

Like a banner said I saw "Do you trust 54000 doctors or Jeremy Hunt".

so is a poster with claims that Doctors will go and live in Australia as a  result of this contract   .. but I wasn't really aware of the Union radical argument , certainly wasn't being used by me   ...

The Health Secretary is listed as one of the authors, though he has previously denied that he wrote the chapter on the NHS and says it does not reflect his views.

more here

to answer the banner ... Neither  

[blandy]

19 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

So is a poster with claims that Doctors will go and live in Australia as a  result of this contract

They are, Tony.

This from a letter for Orthopaedic doctors from the BOTA (not from the internet edit - can be seen here as a pdf)

Quote

The term Junior Doctor refers to all medical graduates from Day 1 as a doctor up to, but not including, Consultants. In Trauma & Orthopaedic Surgery, junior doctors train for a minimum of 10 years (after medical school) and are well into their 30’s before becoming Consultants. Junior doctors already work 7 days a week to provide acute care to the UK population, and have never been able to opt out of weekend working. They do this despite record levels of low morale within the NHS. Many junior doctors have chosen to leave the profession or change careers due to the intense workload, poor work/life balance, and changes to the NHS3. This widespread sentiment felt by many junior doctors is no more evident than in Foundation Doctors (those recently qualified as doctors). Only 64% of Foundation Doctors progressed in their careers at the end of this 2-year post in the UK in 2013. This figure has been declining year-on-year (71% in 2011; 67% in 2012). Latest figures show that 24% of Foundation Doctors that chose not to continue in their career, have left the UK to work abroad, and others have left the profession altogether.

So a quarter of the junior doctors giving up within 2 years of leaving college go off to abroad to do stuff. This dispute will worsen that situation.

Aside from the merits of Hunt's actions on the contract imposition, the overall effect of what the tories are doing to staff morale in hospitals and to the NHS generally is going to bite them right on the backside for years and decades to come. It's not even politically sane to be doing what they are....unless they're trying to wreck it so they can sell it off in big chunks to their mates.

[tonyh29]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

So a quarter of the junior doctors giving up within 2 years of leaving college go off to abroad to do stuff. This dispute will worsen that situation.

 

why didn't they just go to Scotland or Wales ,  neither of which are affected by these issues  (from your pdf) 

 

the 24 % tellingly  says " chose not to continue In their  career" suggesting they haven't moved abroad  to become a Doctor there either   ( note abroad NOT Australia  , to get back to my original point about living in Australia on the poster )

Maybe people change their mind , It's like every student that goes to Uni to do a degree in Media Studies , how many of them then pursue a career in media Studies  ?  how many of them decide to move abroad ? I don't doubt these contract may have an influence but I don't think you can conclusively say they are THE factor .

I moved abroad ,( for love   )  had I happened to have be training as an Orthopedic Doctor chances are I'd now be part of the 24% being quoted  ?

 

 

[blandy]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

why didn't they just go to Scotland or Wales ,  neither of which are affected by these issues  (from your pdf) 

the 24 % tellingly  says " chose not to continue In their  career" suggesting they haven't moved abroad  to become a Doctor there either   ( note abroad NOT Australia  , to get back to my original point about living in Australia on the poster )

Maybe people change their mind , It's like every student that goes to Uni to do a degree in Media Studies , how many of them then pursue a career in media Studies  ?  how many of them decide to move abroad ? I don't doubt these contract may have an influence but I don't think you can conclusively say they are THE factor .

I moved abroad ,( for love   )  had I happened to have be training as an Orthopedic Doctor chances are I'd now be part of the 24% being quoted  ?

I dunno - would you want to go to Scotland or Wales?

The "continue In their career" thing is referring to "continue In their (NHS Junior Doctor) career" as can be inferred from "" and others have left the profession altogether." see also below.

I think (and yes it's only my opinion, from listening to Doctors) that the contract is a factor. And I think it'll become a much bigger one.

Finally, you've got all maths wrong on the percentages (again) 

It's like this: within the 2 year period 64% of Docs carry on, and so 36% stop being NHS docs. Of that 36% almost a quarter [24%  - so 9% of the 100% of total starters) go abroad to be doctors abroad (which includes Australia). So your loved up self would have been part of the 36% :), and part of the 27% who, by deduction give up doctoring all together within 2 years (which in itself is a bad figure). 

[tonyh29]

13 minutes ago, blandy said:

Finally, you've got all maths wrong on the percentages (again) 

I didn't do any maths I just took the figure from you post  

 

42 minutes ago, blandy said:

24% of Foundation Doctors that chose not to continue in their career, have left the UK to work abroad,