The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[chrisp65]

So, as I understand it, what many people wanted when they wish voted for Labour, was a party that didn’t up any taxes, didn’t mess with people’s inheritance, didn’t scare the millionaires, didn’t upset the markets or big business, kept the tax on fossil fuels reduced, but did spend more money without borrowing whilst being benevolent to pensioners and workers in the name of change without rocking the boat and whilst fixing the nhs and saving it from privatisation by a thousand cuts. When what we knew all along from the withdrawal of promise after promise made to become leader, was that the financial plan was to continue with austerity but stop the nasty rhetoric and blame of minorities. Which to be fair, is a decent centrist position.

But, until we see the detail of the October budget, I guess we’re all still just guessing based on what’s been said in the first few weeks. The budget will need some crumbs of comfort or they will have overcooked the financial ‘responsibility’ at the first big test. Not many will have voted to go in to Christmas and bit more financially worried than they were before. 

Upping pensions to negate the need for a fuel bill hand out would be a good. Free school meals would be good. Lifting more children out of poverty would be good. Wholesale change to the university student tax would be good. Devolving the Crown Estate to all the home nations would also be an easy and significant help. Getting those with the broadest shoulders to pay for it, as Starmer personally promised a few weeks ago would be excellent.

Roll on October. Where those that suspect it’s an unimaginative continuation of austerity could finally be put to bed.

 

[PaulC]

I guess you can't blame Labour for the mess 14 years of tories have put this country into..but it's all so gloom, gloom, gloom so far from labour. Who knows what surprises they have under their sleeves for the October budget.  The winter fuel payment cut was unexpected but the reaction to it is ott. £200 helps but is it really going to kill off loads of poor pensioners.  Let's say the poorest pensioners have a minimum of £880 every 4 weeks to live off after council tax and rent if they pay it. Then let's say £300 a month max on electric and gas, plus £30 a month on water so that leaves them over £500 every 4 weeks to feed themselves and go out and play bingo or coffees etc. It's manageable 

The guaranteed minimum amount a pensioners has to live off after deducting rent, mortgage and council tax is just over £217  a week. Thsts for a single person.

Edited September 11 by PaulC

[LondonLax]

It’s also quite a standard tactic for a new government to front load all the politically unpopular stuff to their first year in office then start giving all sorts of budget giveaways in the year leading up to an election. 

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, PaulC said:

I guess you can't blame Labour for the mess 14 years of tories have put this country into..but it's all so gloom, gloom, gloom so far from labour. Who knows what surprises they have under their sleeves for the October budget.  The winter fuel payment cut was unexpected but the reaction to it is ott. £200 helps but is it really going to kill off loads of poor pensioners.  Let's say the poorest pensioners have a minimum of £880 every 4 weeks to live off after council tax and rent if they pay it. Then let's say £300 a month max on electric and gas, plus £30 a month on water so that leaves them over £500 every 4 weeks to feed themselves and go out and play bingo or coffees etc. It's manageable 

The guaranteed minimum amount a pensioners has to live off after deducting rent, mortgage and council tax is just over £217  a week. Thsts for a single person.

£300 a month on gas/electric is double what I pay as a family of 4 and we both WFH. I would assume a single pensioner would spend closer to £100. 

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, PaulC said:

 Let's say the poorest pensioners have a minimum of £880 every 4 weeks to live off after council tax and rent if they pay it. 

Why are you assuming that?

If a pensioner brings in only 880 quid every 4 weeks, that puts them above the pension credit cut off, meaning not only do they not get WFA, but:

1. They still have to pay council tax

2. They're not ordinarily eligible for support for rent (that's also tied in with the pension credit threshold).

i.e. some of the poorest pensioners have that 880 quid *before* these two big costs, not after.

 

[PaulC]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

Why are you assuming that?

If a pensioner brings in only 880 quid every 4 weeks, that puts them above the pension credit cut off, meaning not only do they not get WFA, but:

1. They still have to pay council tax

2. They're not ordinarily eligible for support for rent (that's also tied in with the pension credit threshold).

i.e. some of the poorest pensioners have that 880 quid *before* these two big costs, not after.

 

I have already explained that the minimum amount a pensioner has to live off after rent and council tax is £217 a week.  I could find the information for you but if you google it you will find it.

[Davkaus]

2 minutes ago, PaulC said:

I have already explained that the minimum amount a pensioner has to live off after rent and council tax is £217 a week.  I could find the information for you but if you google it you will find it.

Yeah I think you're right

I had previously read this page:

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility

But missed the crucial part in bold

Quote

When you apply for Pension Credit your income is calculated. If you have a partner, your income is calculated together.

Pension Credit tops up:

your weekly income to £218.15 if you’re single

your joint weekly income to £332.95 if you have a partner

If your income is higher, you might still be eligible for Pension Credit if you have a disability, you care for someone, you have savings or you have housing costs.

I thought you wouldn't get housing benefit if you were over the pension credit threshold but think I was mistaken.

[icouldtelltheworld]

14 minutes ago, PaulC said:

I guess you can't blame Labour for the mess 14 years of tories have put this country into..but it's all so gloom, gloom, gloom so far from labour. Who knows what surprises they have under their sleeves for the October budget.  The winter fuel payment cut was unexpected but the reaction to it is ott. £200 helps but is it really going to kill off loads of poor pensioners. 

One of the issues we have is that because the UK industrialised earlier than other countries, our housing stock is generally older and in a poorer state of repair than other similar nations.

We already have the highest excess winter mortality of any European nation, despite our winter temperatures being much more temperate than other places. There is no doubt whatsoever that people will die as a result of this change.

I do think it's a complicated issue - I've long thought that the winter payments should not be universal, but setting the eligibility criteria is clearly a tricky issue that I won't pretend to have the answers for 

[PaulC]

9 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Yeah I think you're right

I had previously read this page:

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility

But missed the crucial part in bold

I thought you wouldn't get housing benefit if you were over the pension credit threshold but think I was mistaken.

Yes I thought the same until I was told different

[PaulC]

9 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

One of the issues we have is that because the UK industrialised earlier than other countries, our housing stock is generally older and in a poorer state of repair than other similar nations.

We already have the highest excess winter mortality of any European nation, despite our winter temperatures being much more temperate than other places. There is no doubt whatsoever that people will die as a result of this change.

I do think it's a complicated issue - I've long thought that the winter payments should not be universal, but setting the eligibility criteria is clearly a tricky issue that I won't pretend to have the answers for 

Yes that's very true. 

[Chindie]

Change! 

[delboy54]

1 hour ago, PaulC said:

I guess you can't blame Labour for the mess 14 years of tories have put this country into..but it's all so gloom, gloom, gloom so far from labour. Who knows what surprises they have under their sleeves for the October budget.  The winter fuel payment cut was unexpected but the reaction to it is ott. £200 helps but is it really going to kill off loads of poor pensioners.  Let's say the poorest pensioners have a minimum of £880 every 4 weeks to live off after council tax and rent if they pay it. Then let's say £300 a month max on electric and gas, plus £30 a month on water so that leaves them over £500 every 4 weeks to feed themselves and go out and play bingo or coffees etc. It's manageable 

The guaranteed minimum amount a pensioners has to live off after deducting rent, mortgage and council tax is just over £217  a week. Thsts for a single person.

Let's say the poorest pensioners have a minimum of £880 every 4 weeks to live off after council tax and rent if they pay it. 

I think you are wrong here, for a single person, its £880 every 4 weeks BEFORE they pay council tax (normally reduced by 25% for a single person) and rent if they dont get help to pay it.

Therefore out of their pension of 880 they have to pay, council tax, rent, gas, electricity, water, insurance, possibly costs in running a car and then shopping as well as TV licence etc etc etc

I should know I am a pensioner.

Are you saying "let them eat cake?".........

[one_ian_taylor]

1 hour ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

One of the issues we have is that because the UK industrialised earlier than other countries, our housing stock is generally older and in a poorer state of repair than other similar nations.

We already have the highest excess winter mortality of any European nation, despite our winter temperatures being much more temperate than other places. There is no doubt whatsoever that people will die as a result of this change.

I do think it's a complicated issue - I've long thought that the winter payments should not be universal, but setting the eligibility criteria is clearly a tricky issue that I won't pretend to have the answers for 

Slightly counter intuitively,  the excess winter  death  rate is high in many countries  with temperate weather (at least last I looked, which was admittedly  before the pandemic). The Scandinavian countries  tend to have very low rates,  which will undoubtedly be down to better quality  public  services and public health etc, but is also partly down to having to have excellent building performance standards for insulation to keep out the cold. Conversely,  Portugal had a very high excess winter death  rate, which I suspect is in part because the housing  stock is not made to deal with colder weather,  so any cold spell is likely to have a disproportionate effect.  

[tonyh29]

Government have issued some advice for Pensioners worried about the lose of their winter fuel allowance 

[Davkaus]

Been waiting 14 years to have fun in the bollitics threads again haven't you

[icouldtelltheworld]

32 minutes ago, one_ian_taylor said:

Slightly counter intuitively,  the excess winter  death  rate is high in many countries  with temperate weather (at least last I looked, which was admittedly  before the pandemic). The Scandinavian countries  tend to have very low rates,  which will undoubtedly be down to better quality  public  services and public health etc, but is also partly down to having to have excellent building performance standards for insulation to keep out the cold. Conversely,  Portugal had a very high excess winter death  rate, which I suspect is in part because the housing  stock is not made to deal with colder weather,  so any cold spell is likely to have a disproportionate effect.  

Yes it has much more to do with indoor temperatures than outdoor temperatures.

I suspect the fact that ourselves and Portugal are the most economically unequal countries in western Europe is a significant factor

[Wainy316]

I'm not pleased with this decision but it's **** hilarious to see Tories and their supporters suddenly sprout a moral backbone and sense of outrage at depriving vulnerable people.

After the repeated, calculated, devastating cuts imposed by the previous government to almost every single aspect of society.

I feel this may be posturing rather than genuine concern on their part.  words removed.

[PaulC]

1 hour ago, delboy54 said:

Let's say the poorest pensioners have a minimum of £880 every 4 weeks to live off after council tax and rent if they pay it. 

I think you are wrong here, for a single person, its £880 every 4 weeks BEFORE they pay council tax (normally reduced by 25% for a single person) and rent if they dont get help to pay it.

Therefore out of their pension of 880 they have to pay, council tax, rent, gas, electricity, water, insurance, possibly costs in running a car and then shopping as well as TV licence etc etc etc

I should know I am a pensioner.

Are you saying "let them eat cake?".........

No I'm.right on this. Pension credit will top your income up to approx 870 every 4 weeks which also. ticks the boxes for housing benefit and council tax rebate after the 25% deduction. If you have savings over 10k you can't claim pension credit and over 16k for housing benefit. 

If you think you're eligible you should claim.

[ml1dch]

21 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

I'm not pleased with this decision but it's **** hilarious to see Tories and their supporters suddenly sprout a moral backbone and sense of outrage at depriving vulnerable people.

I get that most of the outrage is political expediency, because if you can give a Government that you don't like a kicking on something, then why wouldn't you.

But even so, the small-state Thatcherite right aghast at the removal of universal taxpayer handouts irrespective of the need of the recipient is quite a screeching ideological u-turn. As is those on the Owen Jones wing of the left arguing that millionaires should receive the same Government support as those in need. 

Funny things, principles. 

[foreveryoung]

No move on inflation for 2 months now.  

Bring on the budget. Be interesting to see if Labour turn it to the rich. Or just bash the poor a little more.