Wainy316 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 2 hours ago, Genie said: How about taxing gambling (sports bets, slots, casino, bingo, lottery) winnings? Can tell you’ve already been gubbed everywhere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 7 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: Can tell you’ve already been gubbed everywhere I have probably spent a total of about £50 gambling in the last years since the PS days! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 33 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: Personally I just don’t want a continuation of the kind of policy that has caused this mess in the first place. Well no, neither do I really. But there also has to be some acceptance of what they've inherited wether we like it or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 39 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I see he’s still going with the surprise £20 billion black hole schtick which was debunked before the election, but let’s not worry about that. I thought the OBR agreed that there was certainly more money in that black hole than originally thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 4 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I thought the OBR agreed that there was certainly more money in that black hole than originally thought. Pre election Plaid were telling them not to limit their tax options as the black hole was £22 billion. I think at the time, pre election, Swinney quoted the IFS figure of £18 billion. Could have been lucky guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 Personally I'd start by shutting the windows hard on the pudgy parasite fingers in the Paradise Papers. Then I'd systematically simplify and seal the entire tax system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 27 VT Supporter Share Posted August 27 Wealth tax should be inevitable. It's not going to be, but it should be. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeVillan Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 (edited) Surely Lord Alli could help fill some of that £22b black hole? Edited August 27 by TreeVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 (edited) There was an interesting hypothetical anecdote on wealth using Musk as an example. It starts by telling him he will be taxed on the value of his Tesla stocks from now on. He says no, it’s just paper, there’s no value unless they are sold, but before then nothing at all. Ok Musk then wants to buy twitter and approaches a big bank to loan him the money. They say ok, but what will he use as collateral? He offers his Tesla stocks as collateral… When it comes to tax they are nothing, just paper. When it comes to loans they have a significant value and can guarantee billions in loans. I wonder if they could be taxed when used in this type of scenario, being used as collateral makes them “real” and should be taxable. It’s a start at least. Edited August 27 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: Well no, neither do I really. But there also has to be some acceptance of what they've inherited wether we like it or not. Yeah I definitely accept it and am sympathetic about it but surely the way out of it is not more of the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy7211 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted August 28 Moderator Share Posted August 28 16 hours ago, DCJonah said: We've got a PM having to check prison spaces during major rioting throughout the country. The Tories broke pretty much everything. I seriously don't get the attitude from some when we have a PM who is being honest with the situation and saying they need time to make things better. Would you prefer a stop the boats style slogan that makes you feel ok and you can stick your head in the sand regarding the actual day to day issues we face? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 56 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said: These unpleasant truths are, in the words of Rachel Reeves, a bomb under the carpet they didn’t know about. I guess the cartoon looks like it represents Labour vs Tory, when it might actually be Labour, either side of an election. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28 Moderator Share Posted August 28 16 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I see he’s still going with the surprise £20 billion black hole schtick which was debunked before the election, but let’s not worry about that. It wasn't "debunked" before the election. It's true that places like the IFS said that neither the tories nor Labour were being honest with the electorate, and that taxes would have to rise. But there's a "but". It's been since pointed out by both the OBR and the IFS that there is a genuine "black hole". Not as big as 20 odd billion, but still a big black hole. What Labour has done is exaggerated the "not known about part - they knew (as did the Tories) that public sector pay rises would have to be more than the 2% budgeted for, but the extra cost of that wasn't really "not known". Quote this is where I do have sympathy for the new chancellor. Although the asylum bill was largely predictable, what wasn’t clear from the outside was that the reserve had already in effect been spent on a veritable hotchpotch of demands including support for the Northern Ireland executive, paying for various outrageously expensive public inquiries, and additional costs of running the railways. What was also not apparent from the outside was that a number of new initiatives announced by the Conservatives were in effect unfunded within departmental budgets. So, Labour did get even more of a hospital pass than it would have expected. That said, it is not right to put the predictable, and at least to some extent optional, costs of public pay increases in the same bucket as the genuine unknowns. IFS Quote many of the challenges Labour outlined in July were “entirely predictable”, but that the in-year financial pressures did “genuinely appear to be greater than could be discerned from the outside”. Full fact What's apparent is that there is a black hole, due entirely to the Tories, but Labour is doing what Osborne did and piling blame on "the last lot" in order to do things they didn't tell us about during the election campaign. I think a lot of people feel or felt that taxes would have to go up and need to in order to fix everything that the tories broke - I mean nothing works, does it? But everyone shied away from actually saying so, during the election campaign. Politicians all lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 28 VT Supporter Share Posted August 28 (edited) Change. Everything's shit and going to get shitter, but now it's getting shitter for good reasons. Jam tomorrow. Edited August 28 by Chindie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 4 minutes ago, blandy said: It wasn't "debunked" before the election. It's true that places like the IFS said that neither the tories nor Labour were being honest with the electorate, and that taxes would have to rise. But there's a "but". It's been since pointed out by both the OBR and the IFS that there is a genuine "black hole". Not as big as 20 odd billion, but still a big black hole. What Labour has done is exaggerated the "not known about part - they knew (as did the Tories) that public sector pay rises would have to be more than the 2% budgeted for, but the extra cost of that wasn't really "not known". IFS Full fact What's apparent is that there is a black hole, due entirely to the Tories, but Labour is doing what Osborne did and piling blame on "the last lot" in order to do things they didn't tell us about during the election campaign. I think a lot of people feel or felt that taxes would have to go up and need to in order to fix everything that the tories broke - I mean nothing works, does it? But everyone shied away from actually saying so, during the election campaign. Politicians all lie. So you’re of the ‘lucky guesses’ opinion on the multiple parties and organisations that called the right figure or within £2 billion of the right figure? That’s fine, that’s just as valid as any other reason unless they show us their workings out. It was clever evasive wording, or a sleight of hand, or a necessary evil to gain power, or a genuine surprise to the people being put in charge of the nation’s finances. None of those is a great look. But I completely understand power first, full disclosure later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 28 VT Supporter Share Posted August 28 26 minutes ago, Chindie said: Change. Everything's shit and going to get shitter, but now it's getting shitter for good reasons. Jam tomorrow. I know you want something different. A utopian socialist Government. Well firstly, the country firmly rejected that. But mainly, where do you think the money is coming from? How are we going to make our way in the world and pay for all the free housing, plethora of Doctors and Dentists, look after all the infirm, give the unemployed larger payments. Please, just let me know who pays for this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 3 minutes ago, sidcow said: I know you want something different. A utopian socialist Government. Well firstly, the country firmly rejected that. But mainly, where do you think the money is coming from? How are we going to make our way in the world and pay for all the free housing, plethora of Doctors and Dentists, look after all the infirm, give the unemployed larger payments. Please, just let me know who pays for this? It is quite tricky to raise money when you’ve pledged not to borrow and not to raise tax. It’s almost like they tied themselves to the existing business plan whilst putting the word ‘Change’ in their advertising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 We'll be fighting in the streets With our children at our feet And the morals that they worship will be gone And the men who spurred us on Sit in judgement of all wrong They decide and the shotgun sings the song I'll tip my hat to the new Constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again A change, it had to come We knew it all along We were liberated from the fold, that's all And the world looks just the same And history ain't changed 'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war I'll tip my hat to the new Constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again, no, no I'll move myself and my family aside If we happen to be left half-alive I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky For I know that the hypnotized never lie Do you? Yeah There's nothing in the street Looks any different to me And the slogans are effaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Is now parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight I'll tip my hat to the new Constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again Don't get fooled again, no, no Yeah Meet the new boss Same as the old boss 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted August 28 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted August 28 25 minutes ago, sidcow said: I know you want something different. A utopian socialist Government. Well firstly, the country firmly rejected that. But mainly, where do you think the money is coming from? How are we going to make our way in the world and pay for all the free housing, plethora of Doctors and Dentists, look after all the infirm, give the unemployed larger payments. Please, just let me know who pays for this? I don't want a 'utopian' socialist government. We need to actually change our approach to things. You can't keep pumping the split of wealth into smaller and smaller percentages of pockets, you can't turn everything into a profit motive. There needs to be wholesale change to the way we approach tax, public institutions and services. If we don't, it will all collapse. People will not accept struggle to pay basic bills and never owning things while a small elite lives in luxury beyond comprehension. It will turn violent, and the system will be destroyed. It's arguably already getting there - London basically isn't sustainable as a city, housing and basic living is so warped by predatory profit motivation that the city basically imports the people that keep the wheels turning and it's central investment from government dwarfs anywhere else in the country - just look at it's transport system, Birmingham, ****, the West Midlands, would crawl through fire for half the system London has, but it will never, ever have it. That kind of thing can't carry on, there needs to be an acceptance that yes profit is good but there's limits to which it starts to be counterproductive and the tide must raise the lowest higher faster, that money must be diversified wider. Neither party wishes to address this though and instead basically commits to the system as it stands and fiddles on the periphery. And calls it change. It isn't. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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