The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Seat68]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Not sure if you are serious

I am, perhaps I am misunderstanding you. To put it in to context, in my role here I manage a delivery, and also a team, that team know how to do their job, they are experts in that field, they are employed to do that function. I don't know how to do the detail of what they do, but I trust them to do it.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Which countries share our morals? 

The white ones

[Demitri_C]

6 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I am, perhaps I am misunderstanding you. To put it in to context, in my role here I manage a delivery, and also a team, that team know how to do their job, they are experts in that field, they are employed to do that function. I don't know how to do the detail of what they do, but I trust them to do it.

Ill give you a example where this problematic as i can see in your example why you feel like that but its differentin places like the nhs.  Senior operation managers go on call so they may receive phone calls about a patient on a ward out of hours. Lets say for example this ops managers role is under cardiology. A and E contact about patient asking has this patient got a follow up or new appointment under cardiology as they need to be seen urgently as a outpatient. Can you check? Erm no sorry but book a appointment for them to be on safe side. So they book a appointment  then its discovered they already had a appointment so they have two appointments booked and one wasted for another patient when that could have been prevented.

Im sorry but if you are a senior manager you should be able to do the simple things that your role covers. 

Edited July 12 by Demitri_C

[Stevo985]

7 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I am, perhaps I am misunderstanding you. To put it in to context, in my role here I manage a delivery, and also a team, that team know how to do their job, they are experts in that field, they are employed to do that function. I don't know how to do the detail of what they do, but I trust them to do it.

Yep this.

Management should have an understanding of what a job entails, but they don't necessarily need to know how to actually do it. That's not what they're there for.

I manage a pretty big team of people these days. I have no idea how to do half the stuff they do. Why would I? It would take a load of time to train me up to do stuff I don't need to do.

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Ill give you a example where this problematic.  Senior operation managers go on call so they may receive phone calls about a patient on a ward out of hours. Lets say for example this ops managers role is under cardiology. A and E contact about patient asking has this patient got a follow up or new appointment under cardiology as they need to be seen urgently as a outpatient. Can you check? Erm no sorry but book a appointment for them to be on safe side. So they book a appointment  then its discovered they already had a appointment so they have two appointments booked and one wasted for another patient when that could have been prevented.

Im sorry but if you are a senior manager you should be able to do the simple things that your role covers. 

That's different. In that case it sounds like using and understanding that system is specifically a requirement of that role. If that manager, however senior he is, is expected to use that system in that way then they should be trained to use it.

So that's either a failing of that manager if he's had that training, or a failure of the company (or trust I guess in this case) that they haven't provided the training.

[Demitri_C]

Just now, Stevo985 said:

That's different. In that case it sounds like using and understanding that system is specifically a requirement of that role. If that manager, however senior he is, is expected to use that system in that way then they should be trained to use it.

So that's either a failing of that manager if he's had that training, or a failure of the company (or trust I guess in this case) that they haven't provided the training.

But thats the thing alot of them dont want to learn it they think its beneath them. 

Most of them just sit in meetings all day nodding their heads. Ive spent so much time with them. You can honestly save you much money in nhs but getting rid of alot of them and just have more band 7s doing the jobs.

Most band 7s can do it all as they come from lower in the nhs pyramid and have the experience of booking appointments TCIs, and all the other admin stuff. We have so many talented lower end management in the nhs who are not given opportunities as most of these band 8s stay in nhs forever as its 'safe' for them. If they were in a private organisations they would be be exposed more for their weaknesses. Its a big problem in the nhs and Streeting is kind of alluding to it.

Its unbelievable this 12 years of shit nhs management of the nhs by the tories has not recognised this

[Davkaus]

7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yep this.

Management should have an understanding of what a job entails, but they don't necessarily need to know how to actually do it. That's not what they're there for.

I manage a pretty big team of people these days. I have no idea how to do half the stuff they do. Why would I? It would take a load of time to train me up to do stuff I don't need to do.

Yup, it's also just not a good use of the time of more senior staff.

Just now, Demitri_C said:

But thats the thing alot of them dont want to learn it they think its beneath them. 

Most of them just sit in meetings all day nodding their heads. Ive spent so much time with them. You can honestly save you much money in nhs but getting rid of alot of them and just have more band 7s doing the jobs.

Most band 7s can do it all as they come from lower in the nhs pyramid and have the experience of booking appointments TCIs, and all the other admin stuff. We have so many talented lower end management in the nhs who are not given opportunities as most of these band 8s stay in nhs forever as its 'safe' for them. If they were in a private organisations they would be be exposed more for their weaknesses. Its a big problem in the nhs and Streeting is kind of alluding to it.

Its unbelievable this 12 years of shit nhs management of the nhs by the tories has not recognised this

You're making exactly the argument I was criticising to kick this off.

Management should be there to manage, set strategy, ensure the high level priorities and objectives of the organisation are being met or worked towards.

Because of the way jobs are banded, pretty much every clinician is ultimately steered into management.

Eventually, these young hungry band 7s you're advocating for will also find themselves overpromoted, distant from front line delivery, and you'll be moaning about them too, as they underperform in management when they were probably very effective practitioners for them to get there

[chrisp65]

That doesn’t sound like incompetent managers, that sounds more like a basic mismatch of job description versus actual job expectation.

If I’ve been employed to manage a building site, I don’t need to know how to plaster. If I’ve been employed to manage and plaster, that’s a different story. What’s the job description? Should hospital managers be able to help out with surgical procedures and filling in the bookings? Or is that just what some of the other staff want them to be doing because there are staffing gaps?

I could no longer do the technical 3D drawing that staff that work with me are doing. But without putting too fine a point on it, I’m paid too much to be drawing stuff. If they urgently need drawings produced, they need to employ another technician, not get the manager to draw. Because now you’ve got a manager producing ropey drawings, slowly, and nobody managing the job.

 

[Demitri_C]

7 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Yup, it's also just not a good use of the time of more senior staff.

You're making exactly the argument I was criticising to kick this off.

Management should be there to manage, set strategy, ensure the high level priorities and objectives of the organisation are being met or worked towards.

Because of the way jobs are banded, pretty much every clinician is ultimately steered into management.

Eventually, these young hungry band 7s you're advocating for will also find themselves overpromoted, distant from front line delivery, and you'll be moaning about them too, as they underperform in management when they were probably very effective practitioners for them to get there

I think we have different ideas on management.  Every organisation has a different  core way to manage. NHS will have a different structure to somewhere like ALDI for example, or a post office.

Your last paragraph literally makes no sense sorry.  why would i moan about band 7s who have actually worked their way up and can actually manage people ans be able to handle queries? Thats a more proactive way to work. You need leaders that can support you not just pass the work down to you because they feel its beneath them

[Demitri_C]

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

That doesn’t sound like incompetent managers, that sounds more like a basic mismatch of job description versus actual job expectation.

If I’ve been employed to manage a building site, I don’t need to know how to plaster. If I’ve been employed to manage and plaster, that’s a different story. What’s the job description? Should hospital managers be able to help out with surgical procedures and filling in the bookings? Or is that just what some of the other staff want them to be doing because there are staffing gaps?

I could no longer do the technical 3D drawing that staff that work with me are doing. But without putting too fine a point on it, I’m paid too much to be drawing stuff. If they urgently need drawings produced, they need to employ another technician, not get the manager to draw. Because now you’ve got a manager producing ropey drawings, slowly, and nobody managing the job.

 

I think thats a very point chris to be honest about the job descriptions. Thats definitely sonething they need to look at as i can tell you now the job descriptions for nhs are usually very different to what you actually do !

I remember once i applied for a role went to interview  and they apologised as at start of interview  they said the job description you applied for is actually different to what the role is [this is in NHS]

Edited July 12 by Demitri_C

[Davkaus]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

.  why would i moan about band 7s who have actually worked their way up and can actually manage people ans be able to handle queries?

Where did all of these band 8s come from?

[Demitri_C]

Just now, Davkaus said:

Where did all of these band 8s come from?

Many of them either were recruited by their mates or family (a lovely nhs special) 

There are some managers who made it as 7s to 8s but not many that i know of. As i said earlier alot of them have been in the roles for many years. They are protected ans know they can get away with doing very little so why leave?

[Seat68]

My wife is an 8b. She doesnt know how to wash up. Just saying.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, Seat68 said:

My wife is an 8b. She doesnt know how to wash up. Just saying.

I’ve never considered sub dividing the numbers.

I’ve always just told my wife she’s a 9 and we’ll review again in 3 months. Hadn’t considered refining it further.

[Xann]

Care?

The NHS transitioned to cash cow.

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, Xann said:

Care?

The NHS transitioned to cash cow.

Nail on head

[Jareth]

20 hours ago, blandy said:

I’d say that, ideally. Depends how far you take the definition of ”parallel”. If you take it to mean segregated or separate, then definitely they shouldn’t. If you take it mean “playing by a different set of rules and laws, then also, no. I suppose if you just mean “well, they’re just a little bit different culturally”, then that’s not really “parallel”. Ideally I’d hope to assimilate, and hope that others would, too and try to end up with the best of all the different cultures.

Yeah I agree, it's about what parallel means. Brum has been truly multicultural for a very long time. I was in a white minority at school, but went to birthday parties of Sikh and Muslim mates, and saw families and communities situated together in close proximity, older generations not speaking much English but the kids, who are now probably 50 years old, speaking in brummy accents. The idea that such communities are unwanted or somehow undesirable is just pure racism, and sorry @magnkarl but you've criticised such communities of immigrants as being undesirable yet white Ukrainians are ok. Both are ok. Parallell societies in the UK = multiculturalism - and while we are on the definition of 'parallel societies' may I ask where an ambulance service based entirely on religion, sits in that definition? 

[magnkarl]

10 hours ago, Jareth said:

Which countries share our morals? 

I think you know the answer to that question. Ones that don’t kill people for their sexuality and oppress people for their gender, is a good start.

[magnkarl]

18 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

Does it? Where's your source for that?

Plenty of places.

Gun murder capital of Europe

Quote

How Peaceful Sweden Became Europe’s Gun-Murder Capital

Sky

Quote

Sweden's gun crime death rate is now the highest in the European Union. About 62,000 people are linked to criminal networks in the country, police say.

 

[magnkarl]

3 hours ago, Jareth said:

Yeah I agree, it's about what parallel means. Brum has been truly multicultural for a very long time. I was in a white minority at school, but went to birthday parties of Sikh and Muslim mates, and saw families and communities situated together in close proximity, older generations not speaking much English but the kids, who are now probably 50 years old, speaking in brummy accents. The idea that such communities are unwanted or somehow undesirable is just pure racism, and sorry @magnkarl but you've criticised such communities of immigrants as being undesirable yet white Ukrainians are ok. Both are ok. Parallell societies in the UK = multiculturalism - and while we are on the definition of 'parallel societies' may I ask where an ambulance service based entirely on religion, sits in that definition? 

Blandly defined exactly the issues around parallel societies. Multiculturalism is the opposite of parallel societies.

Have a trip to Berlin’s suburb Wedding or parts of Uppsala and you’ll see what parallel societies are. They aren’t what you think they are.

What’s going on in these parallel societies (like using kids for gang killings or enforcing Sharia law on whole communities in a European society) is absolutely undesirable, which is why people are desperately voting for far right idiots who don’t have a solution to the issues.

Denmark’s Labour Party has put through a solution that seems to work, with plenty of stats that back it.

Edited July 12 by magnkarl