Davkaus Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 2 hours ago, blandy said: It's part of the problem (and part of the solution) - I'm not being political here, or party political, but if there is equivalent to a city the size of Leeds 740K people net, coming here legally every year (and there was last year) then it means more demand for everything from schools to hospitals to housing to doctors and dentists and council services etc. Obviously we need people to do work, and we appear not to have resident people willing or able to fill all the vacancies, so we need people to come here. What's missing is any kind of grip on it, it's like it's too fast and too vast to manage. Once someone is allowed in, they can go where they like. If large numbers go to places already struggling with enough "places" in hospitals and schools etc then those places and the people that were already struggling, struggle more. But it takes years to plan and build the houses schools and roads to catch up with the new population. SO some schools have too few kids in some areas and others are swamped with eager new pupils, for example. I've been watching the developments in Denmark with interest It sounds harsh, is potential illegal, and there's considerable pushback, but I suspect it may pay off in terms of social cohesion. We won't know for years, though. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/07/02/denmark-immigration-parallel-societies-assimilation/ Quote As hard-line anti-immigration policies gain traction across the Western Hemisphere, an extreme experiment is underway in a place you might least expect: Denmark. The Danish program could be a template for other rich countries gripped by rising intolerance — and not necessarily a healthy one. One of the world’s richest, most peaceable nations, Denmark is halfway through a 12-year plan aimed at promoting social cohesion. The project is exacting a steep price in upheaval, dislocation and, in some cases, cruelty from some heavily immigrant, mainly Muslim neighborhoods. The Danish program takes aim at so-called parallel societies, social housing projects where more than half of tenants are “non-Western” — we’ll get to that phrase’s dodgy definition later — and where they fare worse than average by at least two of four measures: income, employment, education and criminal convictions. The goal is to overhaul those areas — by demolition, densification or gentrification — by 2030. In some places, that has meant privatizing and renovating apartment blocks that were subsidized for decades. But in others, working-class immigrants from Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere have been forcibly evicted, their buildings razed or gutted for development. Communities have been shattered, and many tenants dispersed. They also have existing legislation aiming to limit neighbourhoods to no more than 30% "non-Western", which again instinctively makes my toes curl, but the idea of forcing closer integration is one that I think may pay off Edited July 8 by Davkaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 4 hours ago, Demitri_C said: Hold on so are you willing to pay for people to come here not work, use our NHS, take a home and contribute nothing to our country if they are fit to work? Im saying- we give them a opportunity to build a life. Train them to add value in a sector where we have shortages eg dentistry, nursing, teaching etc which benefits not just us but benefits them. Im not sure as you seem to be implying non uk residents can just come here and not work and its ok? (And im talking about the people who can actually work not people are are disabled or have health issues) You’ve just quoted me saying “it’s not so much the coming over to work…” and then bang on about working. The problem I had with your post was an enforced period of working in that particular profession. To me, that’s utterly wrong. (On a wider point, though, I support freedom of movement.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 40 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I've been watching the developments in Denmark with interest It sounds harsh, is potential illegal, and there's considerable pushback, but I suspect it may pay off in terms of social cohesion. We won't know for years, though. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/07/02/denmark-immigration-parallel-societies-assimilation/ They also have existing legislation aiming to limit neighbourhoods to no more than 30% "non-Western", which again instinctively makes me toes curl, but the idea of forcing closer integration is one that I think may pay off At this rate Denmark is the only Western country apart from maybe Switzerland and Poland who have actually managed to mix being generally liberal with stopping parralell societies. In order to solve the issues we need to talk about them even if it makes our toes curl. Compare Sweden and Denmark’s immigration related crime and especially murder and it makes for sobering reading for anyone who advocates for what we’ve had for the last 20 or so years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 8 VT Supporter Share Posted July 8 51 minutes ago, Xela said: My share portfolio has gone down. **** Labour! Should have bought more construction stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 8 Moderator Share Posted July 8 17 minutes ago, sidcow said: Should have bought more construction stock. Always invest in bricks and mortar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dog Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 7 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: My mate who voted Labour who secretly may have voted Reform sent me a video of Farage and one of his Reform mates on about Turkish barbers popping up in market towns. Rugeley seems to have changed in what seems like a blink of an eye . More Eastern Europeans, Asians and more black people. Amazon probably started the trend , although that’s closed now. Regarding Turkish barbers there must be 8/9 in rugeley now and apart from 2/3 well established ones the rest are very quiet in terms of custom . Cash only in a lot of them . Rumours suggesting money laundering and organised crime . I do know that the Albanians are now operating the cocaine trade in town which isn’t good news at all. The town has massively changed. Be interesting to see what town will be like in another 10 years. The barbershop stuff I don't have an answer for, anecdotally (and completely without data), I think we still have the same number of barbers in town as we did 20 years ago, albeit a lot are 'Turkish' barbers. Are they busy? Not a clue. Are they any more likely to be twisting the numbers to hide some money than a normal small, self employed business? I doubt it. As for the Albanians, with nothing but respect mate, I think the Albanians have been the main gateway for sniff for a long long time round my end, I'm not sure that's a new thing? Might be different over your neck of the woods, but at the end of the day, it has to be imported in, so someone else outside the UK is always going to be involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Some interesting points on this thread. One concern I have is integration of newcomers to the UK and what can or should be done to help. Let me give you an example. My sister and partner went to live in a tiny French village about 30 years ago. Only she could speak reasonable French. There were other Britishe families also living in the same village. All the Brits would stick together and hardly ever mix or integrate with the French inhabitants of the village. There was one occasion where at an annual village social event all the Brits stuck together in one corner and none of them ever seemed to make an effort to join in with the French villagers. It was such a shame, language of course was the main barrier and "stiff upper lip" of the brits. I have been fortunate to travel the world in my last job, but I would like to think if I moved to a new Country I would make the effort to learn the language, customs and integrate more than my sisters family did and the other tiny enclave of Brits that became "a foreign field that was forever England" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 9 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9 6 hours ago, T-Dog said: The barbershop stuff I don't have an answer for, anecdotally (and completely without data), I think we still have the same number of barbers in town as we did 20 years ago, albeit a lot are 'Turkish' barbers. Are they busy? Not a clue. Are they any more likely to be twisting the numbers to hide some money than a normal small, self employed business? I doubt it. As for the Albanians, with nothing but respect mate, I think the Albanians have been the main gateway for sniff for a long long time round my end, I'm not sure that's a new thing? Might be different over your neck of the woods, but at the end of the day, it has to be imported in, so someone else outside the UK is always going to be involved. I think there are more barbers. I remember before lockdown the owner of my barbers moaning about all the shops opening nearby and saying it was the fastest growing area of the high street. Mrs Sidcow is my barber now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 9 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9 Starmer meeting with the Metropolitan Mayor's today. I look forward to hearing what Andy Burnham has to say later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 In my post above I also meant to use an analogy... Imagine how difficult it would be for a small heath alliance "follower" to integrate if they were to find themselves relocated to a new job/home in the "shires" and surrounded by "the vile" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 11 minutes ago, delboy54 said: Some interesting points on this thread. One concern I have is integration of newcomers to the UK and what can or should be done to help. Let me give you an example. My sister and partner went to live in a tiny French village about 30 years ago. Only she could speak reasonable French. There were other Britishe families also living in the same village. All the Brits would stick together and hardly ever mix or integrate with the French inhabitants of the village. There was one occasion where at an annual village social event all the Brits stuck together in one corner and none of them ever seemed to make an effort to join in with the French villagers. It was such a shame, language of course was the main barrier and "stiff upper lip" of the brits. I have been fortunate to travel the world in my last job, but I would like to think if I moved to a new Country I would make the effort to learn the language, customs and integrate more than my sisters family did and the other tiny enclave of Brits that became "a foreign field that was forever England" Having lived in a few countries, I think it's only natural that foreigners gravitate toward each other. It's not just the shared language, culture, food etc, although that's part of it, but also we face the same problems about visas, banking, medical, education etc that can be hard to navigate in a foreign country and can support each other. But that doesn't have to be at the exclusion of integrating and making local connections, which I think I have done well everywhere I've lived. You can do both and some of the best times are hanging out in mixed groups of foreigners and locals. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Name Is Death Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 I'm glad we're having more frank discussions about mass immigration and multicultural cohesion, though I note that it took the October 7th attack and subsequent pro-Palestinian protests for the usual bleeding hearts to (a) see problems arising from them as real and not "invented" by the Tories/Daily Mail/far-Right and (b) even begin to treat them as things that need managing in any form whatsoever. Not picking on VT in particular. Just something I've observed more widely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one_ian_taylor Posted July 9 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9 1 hour ago, delboy54 said: In my post above I also meant to use an analogy... Imagine how difficult it would be for a small heath alliance "follower" to integrate if they were to find themselves relocated to a new job/home in the "shires" and surrounded by "the vile" But there would be so many good reasons for them to integrate - better football, a better stadium, nicer colours, culture, sophistication, genius, a little bit more than a 'ot dog. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 hour ago, His Name Is Death said: I'm glad we're having more frank discussions about mass immigration and multicultural cohesion, though I note that it took the October 7th attack and subsequent pro-Palestinian protests for the usual bleeding hearts to (a) see problems arising from them as real and not "invented" by the Tories/Daily Mail/far-Right and (b) even begin to treat them as things that need managing in any form whatsoever. Not picking on VT in particular. Just something I've observed more widely. Care to quote anyone from any organisation in the UK who is advocating for uncontrolled immigration and zero plans for integration of new arrivals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one_ian_taylor Posted July 9 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9 2 hours ago, sidcow said: I think there are more barbers. I remember before lockdown the owner of my barbers moaning about all the shops opening nearby and saying it was the fastest growing area of the high street. Mrs Sidcow is my barber now. More barbers, but I seem to have much less hair. The world has gone mad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 9 Author Share Posted July 9 14 hours ago, Stevo985 said: That’s exactly how the conversation started How was i being smug exactly? I was stating my opinion whether forum members agree with me or not totally fine im happy to engage in debate. You are the one that started with the smug tory comment that was out of order. Why does someone have to be a tory because you dont agree with their opinion? Its ridiculous. It would be good if you actually take accountability for once and accept you was wrong in this instance Back on subject If you actually read what i wrote i said letting more people in whether they are immigrants, successful people who apply for asylum whoever. It has impact on schools, GPs and housing. Its all good letting people in if you have enough GP surgeries schools houses etc. Ive had a few GPs close in my area the last few years and the patients there are now coming at mine (it was already practically impossible to get a GP appointment as it was due to number of new homes built) so adding more people into the areas without the facilities how do you expect us to cope? Thats not a tory myth thats whats actually happening. Ive been booking some neurology new appointments in last few days and you know when our next available slot is ? February 2025 and there are specilities that are much worse than this. To summarise immigration/asylum seekers isnt the problem- adding numbers to a over populated nation without adding more facilities like GPs hospitals, and schools is the biggest challenge we have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 9 Author Share Posted July 9 13 hours ago, bobzy said: You’ve just quoted me saying “it’s not so much the coming over to work…” and then bang on about working. The problem I had with your post was an enforced period of working in that particular profession. To me, that’s utterly wrong. (On a wider point, though, I support freedom of movement.) Fair enough. Thanks for expanding on your point. I dont agree with it. I support freedom of movement- if we have the facilities as my above post states. No point letting anyone come in if you dont have enough houses or GPs for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 9 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9 10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: How was i being smug exactly? I was stating my opinion whether forum members agree with me or not totally fine im happy to engage in debate. You are the one that started with the smug tory comment that was out of order. Why does someone have to be a tory because you dont agree with their opinion? Its ridiculous. It would be good if you actually take accountability for once and accept you was wrong in this instance Eh? I didn't call you smug. And I didn't call you a tory. I said the conversation started with you saying asylum seekers were an issue. Which it did. That's all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: Fair enough. Thanks for expanding on your point. I dont agree with it. I support freedom of movement- if we have the facilities as my above post states. No point letting anyone come in if you dont have enough houses or GPs for them Obviously we'd need housing facilities for them, but that's tough on an asylum claim basis. I wonder if your stance was any different for those coming from Ukraine. Should they have come here to work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 10 minutes ago, bobzy said: Obviously we'd need housing facilities for them, but that's tough on an asylum claim basis. You're absolutely right, both by British and international law. At some point, probably over the next 10-20 years, we're going to need to be having some very difficult conversations about this, though. One of our proposed solutions to the small boat crossing is making it easier to claim without making those crossings - processing centres in France, etc. At no point would any reasonable person suggest that a valid asylum application should be turned away - it's those bloody economic migrants we need to filter out, obviously if it's a real refugee, they come in, of course. It's the law, we have no choice, and it's the right thing to do. That works fine when we get tens of thousands a year. It's one of a number of areas in which we're likely to be absolutely **** by inaction on climate change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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