The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[HanoiVillan]

3 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

 

Ahem, way ahead of you  

Fair enough.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

I take issue with fairly clear tropes being excused with median statistics on income in a relatively small sample size. The fact that the now ex-leader of our second largest party is said to have used this to tune is moral compass is embarrassing. 

I think its a bit unfair to object to ONS statistics being used in the same post you yourself have then used the phrase ‘is said to have...’

That’s really having your cake and eating it.

Fair enough to be on your guard, rightly so, but I think this is the wrong one to get on.

[darrenm]

The problem with what Andrew Murray said about why Corbyn has a blind spot with antisemitism is it's clearly total rubbish.

Corbyn doesn't have a blind spot with antisemitism. The evidence shows that rather than him not dealing with it, it was the faction hostile to him who were using it to undermine him.

The Labour Party obviously has members with antisemitic views. There's a really easy trope for people prone to conspiracy theories to adopt about Jews controlling things. It was never in dispute that some people who thought like that were in the Labour Party and that any time they said or did things which were considered antisemitic they needed to be removed from the party.

It's now clear that the left faction were frustrated in their attempts to speed up the process by people like Iain McNicol and Sam Matthews.

Murray is trying to explain something which isn't there and dipping into a trope in the process.

[magnkarl]

58 minutes ago, darrenm said:

The problem with what Andrew Murray said about why Corbyn has a blind spot with antisemitism is it's clearly total rubbish.

Corbyn doesn't have a blind spot with antisemitism. The evidence shows that rather than him not dealing with it, it was the faction hostile to him who were using it to undermine him.

The Labour Party obviously has members with antisemitic views. There's a really easy trope for people prone to conspiracy theories to adopt about Jews controlling things. It was never in dispute that some people who thought like that were in the Labour Party and that any time they said or did things which were considered antisemitic they needed to be removed from the party.

It's now clear that the left faction were frustrated in their attempts to speed up the process by people like Iain McNicol and Sam Matthews.

Murray is trying to explain something which isn't there and dipping into a trope in the process.

There are many people in the Labour party who would wildly disagree with you. A good part of his circle of friends from the good ol' times have come out in varying degrees of AS and Corbyn did very little about it. You are excusing his inaction by saying that the leader of the party cannot actually properly go out and condemn people like Jackie Walker, Hatton, Livingstone, Lansman, the people who hounded Berger out of office et. all, while he can call Hezbollah and Hamas (who have eliminating Israel and Jews as part of their founding principles) his friends. 

The list of his inactions and idiotic responses in this whole saga, as well as Labour paying damages to staff trying to sort out the issue and being stopped shows that in part he was a large part of the problem. The culture was allowed to exist under him, and if he'd faced the issue he could have probably gotten rid of it.

Edited August 25, 2020 by magnkarl

[blandy]

1 hour ago, darrenm said:

Corbyn doesn't have a blind spot with antisemitism.

Yes he **** does. Whatever ultimately comes out about other Labour people either deliberately frustrating his attempts to deal with it/other Labour people being frustrated at his unwillingness to deal with it in the Labour party/both of the above/none of the above/something else, there is a clear raft of evidence of him having a personal "blind spot". Even by his own admissions at times (e.g. mural apology). 

[darrenm]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

There are many people in the Labour party who would wildly disagree with you. A good part of his circle of friends from the good ol' times have come out in varying degrees of AS and Corbyn did very little about it. You are excusing his inaction by saying that the leader of the party cannot actually properly go out and condemn people like Jackie Walker, Hatton, Livingstone, Lansman, the people who hounded Berger out of office et. all, while he can call Hezbollah and Hamas (who have eliminating Israel and Jews as part of their founding principles) his friends. 

The list of his inactions and idiotic responses in this whole saga, as well as Labour paying damages to staff trying to sort out the issue and being stopped shows that in part he was a large part of the problem. The culture was allowed to exist under him, and if he'd faced the issue he could have probably gotten rid of it.

Jackie Walker - Jewish. He was never asked to condemn her but what would it achieve? Shouldn't Jewish people be able to say what is or isn't antisemitic?

Hatton - I don't think he had much to do with Corbyn. What has he said that's antisemitic for Corbyn to condemn him?

Jon Lansmann - Jewish. Why would he condemn him?

Livingstone - as per Labour leaks McNicol had sat on cases like Livingstone's for years. Corbyn had wanted to expel Livingstone but the NCC would only suspend him https://labourlist.org/2020/04/internal-report-lays-bare-poor-handling-of-complaints-by-labour/:

Quote

 

Ken Livingstone
The report explores the handling of former Labour representative Ken Livingstone’s high-profile case.

It says LOTO was unhappy with the decision by the NCC only to suspend Livingstone, and shows that HQ staff were discussing a rumour that the decision not to take stronger action was made to embarrass Corbyn. This was described by the HQ staffer as a “crazy tale”.
Assurances that a second investigation into Livingstone would be launched were given by HQ to stakeholders such as the Jewish Labour Movement, the report reveals, but not actioned.

 

The Hamas and Hezbollah 'friends' thing is really weak. British PMs have murderous dictators around for dinner every week. Would you condemn Cameron for calling the drone king Obama a friend? Or anyone calling 'a million dead Iraqis' Blair a friend? If not, why not?

If you can list any specific antisemitic thing he's done or said, I'd be happy to discuss that. I don't think rhetoric around 'culture' is the best way to debate these things.

[darrenm]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yes he **** does. Whatever ultimately comes out about other Labour people either deliberately frustrating his attempts to deal with it/other Labour people being frustrated at his unwillingness to deal with it in the Labour party/both of the above/none of the above/something else, there is a clear raft of evidence of him having a personal "blind spot". Even by his own admissions at times (e.g. mural apology). 

OK, the mural. Please tell me how the mural is antisemitic but Harry Potter isn't.

Next?

[magnkarl]

12 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Jackie Walker - Jewish. He was never asked to condemn her but what would it achieve? Shouldn't Jewish people be able to say what is or isn't antisemitic?

Hatton - I don't think he had much to do with Corbyn. What has he said that's antisemitic for Corbyn to condemn him?

Jon Lansmann - Jewish. Why would he condemn him?

Livingstone - as per Labour leaks McNicol had sat on cases like Livingstone's for years. Corbyn had wanted to expel Livingstone but the NCC would only suspend him https://labourlist.org/2020/04/internal-report-lays-bare-poor-handling-of-complaints-by-labour/:

The Hamas and Hezbollah 'friends' thing is really weak. British PMs have murderous dictators around for dinner every week. Would you condemn Cameron for calling the drone king Obama a friend? Or anyone calling 'a million dead Iraqis' Blair a friend? If not, why not?

If you can list any specific antisemitic thing he's done or said, I'd be happy to discuss that. I don't think rhetoric around 'culture' is the best way to debate these things.

Aha - so by your reason you are allowed to be racist as long as it's to your own race. Got it. You should go read up on internalised racism - you might learn something.

How about attending funerals/wreath layings of condemned terrorists who shot innocent sportsmen in the Olympic games?

How about calling someone who is Jewish and British out on their loyalties, values etc on camera when faced with questions? 

How about being part of a group founded by Hojo Meyer, a known holocaust denier (sorry, also Jewish so he can't be racist right?)

How about for once actually coming out against one of these said events and admitting that he's been an idiot rather than doing the very typical "it's all fake news from the Israel lobby!!!" response?

Edited August 25, 2020 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

As if taken out of Donald's book.

Quote

Jeremy Corbyn questions impartiality of EHRC antisemitism inquiry

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by magnkarl

[Chindie]

In fairness at least 1 of the lawyers involved has been openly critical of Corbyn for years and hinted at a critical outcome for Corbyn months ago.

[blandy]

29 minutes ago, darrenm said:

OK, the mural. Please tell me how the mural is antisemitic but Harry Potter isn't.

Next?

"I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic" said Jeremy Corbyn. That's pretty much the definition of a "blind spot", right there, by him.

I have no idea what you mean with the Harry Potter thing, nor of its relevance to Labour?

[chrisp65]

20 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Aha - so by your reason you are allowed to be racist as long as it's to your own race. Got it. You should go read up on internalised racism - you might learn something.

I don’t know how representative these people are, but the problem for me, as a bit of an outsider to this, is there does appear to be an unfathomable layer upon layer of politics, accusation and counter accusation involved in all this.

 

 

[darrenm]

4 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Aha - so by your reason you are allowed to be racist as long as it's to your own race. Got it. You should go read up on internalised racism - you might learn something.

How about attending funerals/wreath layings of condemned terrorists who shot innocent sportsmen in the Olympic games?

How about calling someone who is Jewish and British out on their loyalties, values etc on camera when faced with questions? 

How about being part of a group founded by Hojo Meyer, a known holocaust denier (sorry, also Jewish so he can't be racist right?)

How about for once actually coming out against one of these said events and admitting that he's been an idiot rather than doing the very typical "it's all fake news from the Israel lobby!!!" response?

I was asking the question. It's one I've long grappled with because I'm not Jewish and I don't know anyone who is so I have to learn from people who would suffer from this type of racism. 

You mentioning Hajo Meyer for example. Said many things which could be considered antisemitic. But was a holocaust survivor. Shouldn't he have had more freedom to say to what he thinks? I don't remember Meyer ever being accused of being a holocaust denier, especially as he was actually in Auschwitz.

The wreath laying was to honour 100 Palestinian kids killed on a bus. If you attend a graveyard do you automatically agree with the view's of the names of everyone on a plaque there?

With the questions, I assume you're referring to Jonathan Hoffman and Richard Millet? Both well known troublemakers at Palestinian events who had been barred from parliament after being ejected by police previously? And by loyalties, I assume you're referring to Corbyn saying they 'didn't understand English irony despite living here all their lives' in comparison to Palestinian ambassador Manuel Hassassian, who hasn't?

In 2012, Corbyn said a terrorist attack had 'the hand of Israel' involved. That was antisemitic.

[Davkaus]

I had hoped we'd heard the last of irrelevant backbencher Jeremy Corbyn. 

[HanoiVillan]

@magnkarl I think I have missed what Jon Lansman has done to be in company with Jackie Walker in your post there; what have I missed?

[darrenm]

15 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

As if taken out of Donald's book.

 

Even the EHRC are saying the EHRC aren't independent

 

[darrenm]

15 minutes ago, blandy said:

"I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic" said Jeremy Corbyn. That's pretty much the definition of a "blind spot", right there, by him.

I have no idea what you mean with the Harry Potter thing, nor of its relevance to Labour?

It's the definition of not looking closely enough at an image, not a blind spot to antisemitism.

With the Harry Potter stuff. It's quite blatantly antisemitic. It's in full view, people like facebook posts, love the movies, and are big fans. Do they all have blind spots for antisemitism?

[magnkarl]

13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I don’t know how representative these people are, but the problem for me, as a bit of an outsider to this, is there does appear to be an unfathomable layer upon layer of politics, accusation and counter accusation involved in all this.

 

 

Don't know this organisation so can't help you there.

I think in all these cases any Labour supporter (myself included if they present a probable party programme) should ask themselves "How would I react if BoJo hang out with a holocaust denier or demanded that we change the name of the holocaust memorial day?" Most people would go nuts. Understandably so.

Yet with JC an awful lot of people who call themselves progressive have waded into a grey area between their hatred of Israel and antisemitism. Shouting "ZIOOO" at anyone with a different view to them has become the new golden star for a lot of people who admit to being a Jew in the outer left circles of Labour.

[snowychap]

20 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I don't remember Meyer ever being accused of being a holocaust denier

There is quite a list of people against whom @magnkarl has levelled the accusation of 'holocaust denier'on VT, almost universally without any evidence to support the accusation(s). Surviving the holocaust, having parents/relatives who did or even making statements which obviously contradict the accusation is no barrier to the accusation.

Hopefully, in this case, he willl give a clear example demonstrating that the man in question denies that the holocaust occurred.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by snowychap

[HanoiVillan]

I don't think it's completely unreasonable to wonder about the EHRC's independence:

Equalities and Human Rights Commissioner Failed to Declare Tory fundraising

'A commissioner at the U.K. equalities watchdog, which prides itself on impartiality, failed to declare her donation and fundraising activity for the Conservative Party, Newsweek International can reveal.

Pavita Cooper, who is a commissioner at the Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) made donations totaling £3,500 to the Conservative Party itself, according to the Electoral Commission's website.

It was previously thought that she had made two donations, one to the party and one to the then local member of Parliament Mary Macleod, but the Electoral Commission has since changed its stance after an "admin error" and altered its website.

[...]

The EHRC is currently investigating the opposition Labour Party for alleged antisemitism but has said that "it would not be proportionate to initiate our own investigation" into the Conservative Party after a number of allegations of Islamophobia from within the party were made.

[...]

Upon her appointment by the government, an announcement by the Cabinet Office stated that Ms. Cooper "did not declare any political activity".

Although Ms. Cooper's campaigning and fundraising activities occurred before she became a Commissioner for the EHRC, under the Cabinet Office Code of Governance for Public Appointments, her fundraising and support for the Conservative Party should have been declared.'

from: https://www.newsweek.com/equalities-human-rights-commission-ehrc-pavita-cooper-race-racism-equality-1513338

It would be interesting to know whether Ms Cooper was actually involved in the decision about which issues to investigate and which not, but sadly this information does not appear to be in the public domain.

It's also kind of incredible that Ms Cooper is the only non-white face on the board of the Equalities & Human Rights Commission:

Exclusive: Ex-Equalities Commissioners Say Calling Out Racism Cost Their Jobs

'Two former commissioners at the U.K.'s Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), the country's equalities watchdog, say they were not reappointed to their roles because they were "too loud and vocal" about issues of race, Newsweek can reveal.

Baroness Meral Hussein-Ece, who at the time was the only Muslim commissioner and Lord Simon Woolley who was the only black commissioner, both lost their positions in November 2012.

[...]

At present, it has no black or Muslim members among its board of ten commissioners, which also includes the chair.

[...]

Baroness Hussein-Ece said that she too feared that being vocal about issues of race worked against her.

She said: "We were the ones who spoke more about race. Race equality generally was put on the back burner during that period."

She described the decision not to reappoint herself and Lord Woolley at the time as an "appalling" thing to do.

"We were told to apply for the next term because it's a four-year term, our performance was deemed good, and that we should reapply," she said.

"When we did reapply, we were told we weren't even shortlisted."'

from: https://www.newsweek.com/equality-race-racism-ehrc-equalities-human-rights-commission-1520714

Certainly not an organisation that I would consider beyond question or criticism. Also very notable that only an American media outlet even bothered to report those facts.

Edited August 25, 2020 by HanoiVillan