The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[magnkarl]

8 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I agree with that bicks but i havent said it couldnt be improved. But it seems that its ignored how difficult a poilcemans job is in the uk. But i think its abit dramatic that we have serious issues in the MET compared to.other countries. 

There is a incredible shortage of police officers for starters and that needs addressing.

Is it perfect no. Does it need improvement sure id agree with that. Is there shit police? Yes everywhere whereever you will go there will be. Just like estate agents, councillors, local mps etc. You will get bad and good.

 

So why should someone being racially profiled not be allowed to voice their concern without being called dramatic by a whole set of mostly middle aged white men who have never experienced this sort of treatment before then? 

If a policemen is caught doing this sort of thing they need to get a proper slap, written warning and go to education about race\gender\religion or whatever it is they are prejudging. You don't change a culture by saying 'well it's worse in Bangladesh so let's keep on keeping on'.

[Demitri_C]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

You are arguing here against points nobody is disputing. Nobody argues the police have it easy and nobody thinks we need to grateful because we are not Belarus.

I couldn’t care less about policing in China or Mexico, it’s here I’m concerned about. The police have a very tough job. For some reason, some police appear determined to make it harder for themselves.

You might also want to consider something like the Stephen Lawrence investigation and the Macpherson Report when thinking people are being dramatic about the Met. Their own boss thinks there is still a lot of work to do to combat their internal racism.

The conservative government cut the police by 21,000

At the next election, many people will look at all the unaddressed crime and think, ooh, we need a strong party of law and order. I’d better vote tory.

The difference is, a shit estate agent will give me bad housing advice, a shit councillor will fail to get the local dog poo issue sorted.

A bad policeman can put you in prison and you lose your job, home and your family.

So I’m more relaxed about bad estate agents.

A bad policeman cant put you in prison you need to be trialled and its up to jury/judge then based on the evidence. Hiw many wrong convictions has there been id be interested to know that?

Yes we are know its the conservatives cut them.

Stephen lawerence i am not going toa rgue that as that was a shambles but we have come a long way since then. But how many more injustices has there beenon that high profile? 

You should care because you see our police could be much worse. Hopefully you never get arrested in any of these types of places as then you really will see shit police.

Yeah but at the same time your against stop and search. So lets say a guy they suspect in a park where he is black/white/asian whatever has a knife or gun and they cant stop and search. They person does indeed has a gun shoits the police then starts shooting eveyone then what? Lets give the police even less power and then you will see more inoocnet people die i think.

(Sorry about the mess of the reponse im on my phone its just long to quote in sections unlike on a laptop) and

[Demitri_C]

15 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

So why should someone being racially profiled not be allowed to voice their concern without being called dramatic by a whole set of mostly middle aged white men who have never experienced this sort of treatment before then? 

If a policemen is caught doing this sort of thing they need to get a proper slap, written warning and go to education about race\gender\religion or whatever it is they are prejudging. You don't change a culture by saying 'well it's worse in Bangladesh so let's keep on keeping on'.

I didnt say they were not allowed to voice their concern but i think your more likely to see more people armed if you dont have it at all. 

I agree police need to be penalised when they do wrong didnt say that so not sure where i have said they shouldnt. My point was policing isnt great here but there is far worse out there.

Better training and more diverse groups. I mean not sure about where you are they mainly white police where you? Here is a large amount of non white police officers. 

[chrisp65]

Dem, I genuinely don’t think anyone is saying we should reduce police power and put a stop to stop and search. I don’t think anyone suggests that.

It’s the profiling, made blatant by police doing a specific job not knowing the basic laws around that job.

In this one specific case, they stopped a car and gave two wrong reasons for the stop, when there were probably plenty of valid reasons (or at least reasons that couldn’t be proved to be rubbish) to stop a car. You can’t stop a car because the back window is dark, you can’t stop a car because you think it might be from Yorkshire. That’s just people being very bad at a very sensitive job.

If the police genuinely think someone has a knife, they should intervene. If the police see a crowd and cut through the crowd to the black guy because they presume he would be the knife carrier, and make up a patently stupid excuse, they are doing it wrong and making their own jobs harder.

As it happens, I have been stopped by the police, and as you might expect, it didn’t go particularly well. I backed down in the end because all of us could see they were in the wrong, but they didn’t feel they could back down, because they were ‘the law’.

A simple polite apology from the police was all that was required. But they couldn’t do it, they’d painted themselves in to a ridiculous corner.

I’m not expecting perfection, they have a spectacularly hard job. I do expect people paid to enforce the law, to have a basic grasp of what that law is.

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I didnt say they were not allowed to voice their concern but i think your more likely to see more people armed if you dont have it at all. 

I agree police need to be penalised when they do wrong didnt say that so not sure where i have said they shouldnt. My point was policing isnt great here but there is far worse out there.

Better training and more diverse groups. I mean not sure about where you are they mainly white police where you? Here is a large amount of non white police officers. 

Do you know what a systemic problem means? Studies from the US show that it doesn't matter if you put a black cop in a black neighbourhood when the whole system around him is rigged to prejudging a certain set of people. The figures of incarcerations of black people in the UK are even worse than the US, it proves that our system is almost just as rigged as the American one.

[Demitri_C]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Do you know what a systemic problem means? Studies from the US show that it doesn't matter if you put a black cop in a black neighbourhood when the whole system around him is rigged to prejudging a certain set of people. The figures of incarcerations of black people in the UK are even worse than the US, it proves that our system is almost just as rigged as the American one.

Any studies here showing the same thing in the uk? 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

Mentioned something similar like weeks ago. Ive been pulled over lots of times but white black asian etc. Most have been fine polite explained they had a crime of a person that had some features as me. Let them search me wont fins anything then wish me good day.

 

And I explained at the time that you are not black. Therefore your experience is pretty much irrelevant to the subject. You seemed to really struggle to comprehend why and I assume by bringing it up you still do.

[chrisp65]

20 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Any studies here showing the same thing in the uk? 

 

Here’s a way we could save over £230 Million a year.

We could send ethnic minorities to prison at the same rate as white people.

If convicted minorities were treated the same as convicted white people, we could close 6 prisons. So that’s stripping out whether black or Asian people are ‘more criminal’ or whether poverty breeds law breaking. Strip it all out. Once found guilty, you will be far more likely to go to prison if you are black.

Quote

Analysis conducted for the Lammy Review found a clear direct association between ethnic group and the odds of receiving a custodial sentence. With black people 53%, Asian 55%, and other ethnic groups 81% more likely to be sent to prison for an indictable offence

Prison Reform Trust

[magnkarl]

12 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

Here’s a way we could save over £230 Million a year.

We could send ethnic minorities to prison at the same rate as white people.

If convicted minorities were treated the same as convicted white people, we could close 6 prisons. So that’s stripping out whether black or Asian people are ‘more criminal’ or whether poverty breeds law breaking. Strip it all out. Once found guilty, you will be far more likely to go to prison if you are black.

Prison Reform Trust

And we could save the state a bunch of settlement money from gun happy police who are much more likely to shoot a black person than a white person also in the UK.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

And we could save the state a bunch of settlement money from gun happy police who are much more likely to shoot a black person than a white person also in the UK.

 

All perfectly preventable if only black people would be more polite and co-operative when stopped for the sixteenth time.

[Demitri_C]

44 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

And I explained at the time that you are not black. Therefore your experience is pretty much irrelevant to the subject. You seemed to really struggle to comprehend why and I assume by bringing it up you still do.

It doesnt matter. I can still see how other members who are not white dont have problems with it either. Not all black people have issues with it. 

So on your basis your white you know as much as me so your opinion is as irrevelant as mine!

[StefanAVFC]

Edited August 12, 2020 by StefanAVFC

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

So why should someone being racially profiled not be allowed to voice their concern without being called dramatic by a whole set of mostly middle aged white men who have never experienced this sort of treatment before then?

I think that's right

 

When I first saw the short snippet of Butler , i did think she was being a bit of a cockwomble  ... but if you take the trouble to follow up on her complaints  and  look at the proven statistics  of profiling in places like Hackney , her repeated highlighting of these issues with the Met , her exasperation about the whole thing becomes more understandable .... it strikes me that the people abusing her on social media , aren't interested in a bigger picture though

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by tonyh29

[Davkaus]

41 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

And we could save the state a bunch of settlement money from gun happy police who are much more likely to shoot a black person than a white person also in the UK.

 

It's undeniable that there remains a problem with systemic racism, particularly around stop and search, but I don't think this is the smoking gun. It's a big jump from "BAME people are more likely to be killed in circumstances involving the police" to "the police are more willing to kill BAME people". Men are more likely to be killed. People in their 20s are more likely to be killed. Is that proof of systemic ageism and sexism?

Rather than race, I suspect socioeconomic status is the big factor in those numbers.

[tonyh29]

2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

It's undeniable that there remains a problem with systemic racism, particularly around stop and search, but I don't think this is the smoking gun. It's a big jump from "BAME people are more likely to be killed in circumstances involving the police" to "the police are more willing to kill BAME people". Men are more likely to be killed. People in their 20s are more likely to be killed. Is that proof of systemic ageism and sexism?

Rather than race, I suspect socioeconomic status is the big factor in those numbers.

it was America based but I posted some crime stats in the racism thread some time back that pretty much confirms this  .. The issue as I saw it was to establish why are so many black / Hispanic in those poor socioeconomic   groups  ... and i think people can draw their own conclusions  as to what that "why " is  ... stopping the police from being racist is only part of the problem  .

[magnkarl]

10 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

It's undeniable that there remains a problem with systemic racism, particularly around stop and search, but I don't think this is the smoking gun. It's a big jump from "BAME people are more likely to be killed in circumstances involving the police" to "the police are more willing to kill BAME people". Men are more likely to be killed. People in their 20s are more likely to be killed. Is that proof of systemic ageism and sexism?

Rather than race, I suspect socioeconomic status is the big factor in those numbers.

Agreed, but a lot of this has also got to do with the police being wholly unfit to deal with the issues that they are facing. We're using police in all sorts of situations that they are unfit for, like for example evictions, homeless issues, suicide prevention etc. The police should be there to enforce laws, not make them up as they go because they are not trained to be sensitive to race, socioeconomic issues or anything deeper than breaking up a brawl.

Rather than using the police as a swiss army knife they should be used as a preventative trust building tool. At the moment it seems they are much more interested in finding any excuse to pester people (as per the video). The choir of idiots on twitter abusing anyone who's trying to raise these issues (like the MP) will only enforce the mentality that these police officers have. 

[Stevo985]

43 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

It doesnt matter. I can still see how other members who are not white dont have problems with it either. Not all black people have issues with it. 

So on your basis your white you know as much as me so your opinion is as irrevelant as mine!

I didn't say your opinion is irrelevant. I said your experience is irrelevant. You can still form an opinion which is totally relevant but if it's purely based off your own personal experience with the police then it does probably lack relevancy.

 

I'm not offering an opinion in this case. 

If i was offering an opinion and it was purely based on how I have personally been treated by the police then my opinion would be irrelevant too.

You were offering an opinion on the racism or lack of it in the police. How you have been treated, as a white male, by the police is totally irrelevant to that point.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Stevo985

[meregreen]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

 

I agree police need to be penalised when they do wrong didnt say that so not sure where i have said they shouldnt. My point was policing isnt great here but there is far worse out there.

It’s precisely because they are held to account diligently here, that they aren’t as bad as some other countries. Take a more lassaize faire attitude to their behaviour, and it won’t take long for us to join those other countries.

[blandy]

16 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

a lot of this has also got to do with the police being wholly unfit to deal with the issues that they are facing

I guess if as a kid you have a negative experience and impression of say, the Police (or teachers, or whoever) then you're unlikely to want to go into Policing (or teaching or whatever) when you become older. Which means that the Police don't recruit from your section of society, which means that kids don't see "people like me" as being Police, or Teachers, and the Police don't have the understanding of those sections of society and their lives, which means they're more likely to create a negative experience for those people and the vicious circle goes on and embeds itself more deeply and the culture becomes more resistant, more them and us and it ends up with the organisation being unfit to deal with the world it's in.

There's no quick fix, there may even be no fix at all. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. People like Dawn Butler highlighting the specific problem areas need to be listened to. Because most people don't have her voice. 

[Demitri_C]

51 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I didn't say your opinion is irrelevant. I said your experience is irrelevant. You can still form an opinion which is totally relevant but if it's purely based off your own personal experience with the police then it does probably lack relevancy.

 

I'm not offering an opinion in this case. 

If i was offering an opinion and it was purely based on how I have personally been treated by the police then my opinion would be irrelevant too.

You were offering an opinion on the racism or lack of it in the police. How you have been treated, as a white male, by the police is totally irrelevant to that point.

The thing as a white man i might not be black but ill understand it. Some of my closest frienda are black and mauritian. We use to be in Tottenham as my friend lived there and it was really rough back (still is to a extent) 

We all got stopped and searched a few times. My friends didnt take it personally due to the conduct of the police who were friendly explained the situation of why. We didnt feel victimised at all. Just leaving them to do there job.

I just think not having stop and search provided its done properly and doesnt discriminate against a group of people isnt a bad thing.  There has to be justification for it and good training for the police to follow a process that works and doesnt discriminate. 

If we lived in a fairly safe country where we didnt have so much crime id say we dont need it. But we dont unfortunately