darrenm Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 1 hour ago, jon_c said: Because SNP actually have people voting for them, so 64% of SNP voters in Scotland is more than probably 100% of the Labour voters in Scotland. Also the referendum required politicians to appeal to all voters, not just their core demographic. Like say a General Election, instead of conference of party members. I'm sorry I'm lost. It's Corbyn's fault that remain lost the referendum because he couldn't convince Conservative voters to agree with him, who were already disagreeing with the leader of their own party? Is it Corbyn's fault your Hamster died? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 5, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 2 minutes ago, darrenm said: Is it Corbyn's fault your Hamster died? No, that's Freddie Star's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted July 5, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: he did not lose the support of Labour voters 4% of Ukippers voted to remain? Edited July 5, 2016 by choffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Just now, choffer said: 4% of Ukippers voted to remain? probably MEP's 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Just now, choffer said: 4% of Ukippers voted to remain? According to the poll that has a few percent error margin so I suppose it could be as many as 1 in 7 or as few as 1 in 100. I think this has already been highlighted though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_c Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 15 minutes ago, darrenm said: I'm sorry I'm lost. It's Corbyn's fault that remain lost the referendum because he couldn't convince Conservative voters to agree with him, who were already disagreeing with the leader of their own party? Is it Corbyn's fault your Hamster died? My point was that politics isn't about convincing the people that already agree with you. So the fact that the were already Labour, SNP or conservative voters beforehand is fairly moot. Every politician on remain failed, except arguably the SNP because they only campaigned in Scotland and Scotland voted remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 5 minutes ago, jon_c said: My point was that politics isn't about convincing the people that already agree with you. So the fact that the were already Labour, SNP or conservative voters beforehand is fairly moot. Every politician on remain failed, except arguably the SNP because they only campaigned in Scotland and Scotland voted remain. Even though those voters already agreed with them? I think you've twisted yourself up a little here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_c Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Even though those voters already agreed with them? I think you've twisted yourself up a little here. Not as much the voted remain, but yes I concede that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 5, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 4 hours ago, darrenm said: In what way? Sorry to answer that with a question but why has he been a "very successful leader of the Labour party"? You are asking me to counter a position you've taken without giving any kind of reasoning for and which frankly I find somewhat bewildering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 14 minutes ago, jon_c said: . Every politician on remain failed, except arguably the SNP because they only campaigned in Scotland and Scotland voted remain. SNP 64% = success Labour 63% = failure requiring resignation it's a tough world out there 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 56 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Sorry to answer that with a question but why has he been a "very successful leader of the Labour party"? You are asking me to counter a position you've taken without giving any kind of reasoning for and which frankly I find somewhat bewildering. Sorry I thought the plus points were obvious so didn't think I need to repeat them. Party membership has massively increased since he's been leader, with over 60,000 in a week when it looked like he was being forced out. Labour have won every mayoral contest, the by election wins, the local election performance. At the very least though, the huge increase in party membership during his time has to be big positive? There you go, my stance. Now your turn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 5, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 47 minutes ago, darrenm said: Sorry I thought the plus points were obvious so didn't think I need to repeat them. Party membership has massively increased since he's been leader, with over 60,000 in a week when it looked like he was being forced out. Labour have won every mayoral contest, the by election wins, the local election performance. At the very least though, the huge increase in party membership during his time has to be big positive? There you go, my stance. Now your turn He's been a failure because: He is, as a "leader" unable to "lead" his MPs. If you take the 3 main parts any party needs to be good with - the MPs, the party members and then voters in the constituencies, he has done very well with party members and very badly with the MPs and the country as a whole (and people who would hope that Labour would represent them and stand up for them). At a time when the Tories are an utter, utter mess (and have been since 2015) labour should be ahead of them in the polls, they should be setting the agenda, they should be opposing and beating the Gov't. They are doing none of these things. They will not be the next Gov't with Corbyn in charge. He appeals to people who specifically joined Labour because he appeals to them. Well, quite. I quite like some of what he stands for and some of the way he conducts himself, but what I really really want is not to have a Conservative Gov't. Labour's job should be to bring about the downfall of the tories. They're not doing it. They're not standing up for "us". It's not all his fault, but as the leader his job is to stop the shambles and turn it round. He cannot do that. I could talk about the smaller failures - the appointment of unsuitable people to key roles - Dianne Abbott, Ken Livingstone, Seamus Milne etc. I could point to the mess with anti-Semitism and the Hitler analogies. I could point to his failure to bring Cameron to account at PMQs, I could point to the mess with Trident. Basically he's a nice-ish bloke who all his life has opposed things - his own party more than much. He puts flakey-dreaming principles above practical realities and seems to be of the make up which says that he will not accommodate reality, he will not (or is not capable of) compromising in order to achieve an objective. He's the wrong man, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 5, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 1 hour ago, darrenm said: Sorry I thought the plus points were obvious so didn't think I need to repeat them. Party membership has massively increased since he's been leader, with over 60,000 in a week when it looked like he was being forced out. Labour have won every mayoral contest, the by election wins, the local election performance. At the very least though, the huge increase in party membership during his time has to be big positive? There you go, my stance. Now your turn Thanks, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to reply I'm always interested to know the reasoning behind peoples views when they are so opposed to my own. Call it a sanity check if you will. In regards my turn, Blandy kind of saved me the trouble as I almost entirely agree with his post above. I accept the point about increased party membership but that is in my mind as much about the ability for people to vote on the leadership issue as anything, I don't think it can entirely be seen as a sign of his success. As a guy that has always voted Labour I honestly don't think I could vote for Corbyn because I think he has shown himself incapable of managing by consensus with the shadow cabinet he simple isn't fit to be PM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 30 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Thanks, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to reply I'm always interested to know the reasoning behind peoples views when they are so opposed to my own. Call it a sanity check if you will. In regards my turn, Blandy kind of saved me the trouble as I almost entirely agree with his post above. I accept the point about increased party membership but that is in my mind as much about the ability for people to vote on the leadership issue as anything, I don't think it can entirely be seen as a sign of his success. As a guy that has always voted Labour I honestly don't think I could vote for Corbyn because I think he has shown himself incapable of managing by consensus with the shadow cabinet he simple isn't fit to be PM. Who would be your tip to replace him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Tom Watson is a popular Labour figure and a good communicator. He's comfortable in a tie, he's northern, he has done front bench work If only there was some sort of way of getting him a job title where he could do a lot of the communicating of ideas and rallying of the not quite committed. He could be some sort of 'aid' to Corbyn, letting Corbyn do the things he's good at whilst Watson did the stuff that the media and career MP's need someone to do. Just a wacky idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Some good points made on both sides here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 2 hours ago, darrenm said: Sorry I thought the plus points were obvious so didn't think I need to repeat them. Party membership has massively increased since he's been leader, with over 60,000 in a week when it looked like he was being forced out. Labour have won every mayoral contest, the by election wins, the local election performance. At the very least though, the huge increase in party membership during his time has to be big positive? There you go, my stance. Now your turn you forgot being beaten by the Tories in Scotland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 5, 2016 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2016 40 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Tom Watson....could be some sort of 'aid' to Corbyn, letting Corbyn do the things he's good at whilst Watson did the stuff that the media and career MP's need someone to do. Just a wacky idea. There's a flaw in your wacky suggestion -. Other than telling a subset of people who already support him what they want to hear, what exactly is he good at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 2 minutes ago, blandy said: There's a flaw in your wacky suggestion -. Other than telling a subset of people who already support him what they want to hear, what exactly is he good at? Standing by his principles? Does that not count any more? Or are we all ready to sell our souls for some power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 2 minutes ago, blandy said: There's a flaw in your wacky suggestion -. Other than telling a subset of people who already support him what they want to hear, what exactly is he good at? I'll preface this by saying it's a long time since I voted Labour in any election, but a quick google would suggest that Corbyn.... is against PFI supports raising income tax for the highest earners is against further tax cuts for the wealthy whilst cutting benefits for the poor wants to invest in HMRC to allow them to get back unpaid taxes from the wealthy and large businesses more money for public housing schemes abolition of the state opening of parliament disney parade democratic reform of the House of Lords less bombing of random bits of the middle east without a plan for the next day so I guess a lot of people see him as a person of good principle that would be a better 'guide' or leader than some suit that has private audiences with Murdoch to find out what to think and thinks radical policy is to tweek tiny little edges of tory benefits cuts but I would stress, I'm not an expert, and don't currently vote Labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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