Xann Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 It would be a challenge to get out of this situation with an intelligent electorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 (edited) 57 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: The Tories inherited utopia in 2010 in comparison to what Labour have been left with. The Tories hid behind the no money line to inflict austerity on the nation and to enact ideological cuts. The result of which saw NHS waiting lists go from 2.3 million in 2010 to over 7.5 million now (they had doubled pre pandemic in 2019 to 4.6 million). In 2010 you were guaranteed a GP appointment within 48 hours. In July 2010 the Tories scrapped that guarantee and 30% of people now wait over 8 days for a GP appointment. You had a heart attack in 2010 you would wait on average 18 minutes for an ambulance. It is now 45 minutes. Cancer wait times are now the worst on record and have gotten progressively worse over the last 14 years. You work in the NHS so you'll know we could go on all day about the things that have gotten worse within the NHS since 2010 as the list is endless. There are 4.4 million children living in relative poverty in UK in 2024 an increase of almost a million since 2010. The number of people in working households who are living below the poverty line is 1.5 million higher than it was in 2010.There has been an 80% increase in homelessness since 2010. In 2010 net migration was 252000. Last year it was 685000. Local councils are going bankrupt, schools are in disrepair, social care has been decimated, roads are in dire condition etc,etc,etc. Whilst doing all of the above the Tories wasted/siphoned off an absolute fortune and oversaw zero growth due in the main to Brexit. National debt was 900 billion pound in 2010. It had doubled pre pandemic to 1.8 trillion. It is at over 2.4 trillion pound now. Debt as a percentage of GDP was 64% in 2010, it is now at 97%. The no money line wasn't true in 2010. It very much is now though. Comparing now to 2010 is like comparing chalk with cheese. They simply don't compare. The Tories have left behind a broken country and a shit load of debt. There will be no quick fixes. It will take a decade or more for Labour to get back the country back to anything like where it was in 2010. I personally dont think the comparisons are that much of a difference. You seem to be ignoring the fact how much damage leaving EU and covid did in the last 12 years (yes cameron gave the vote but i bet a lot of labour voters voted out as well as every other voting party) labour didnt have either of those during their term and i bet the country will be a mess regardless who was in power (as shown across the globe with many countries) Labour started the mess and the Conservatives continued making it worse. Im not going to give labour a free pass if things stay the same or get worse in next 12 years as thats how long i expect they remain in government. I do hope you will open to criticising labour when thwy do wrong not just back them because they are not the tories. A final point you are talking about child poverty and i note labour are not scraping the 2 child cap. Whats your position on that ? Edited July 25 by Demitri_C 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 25 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25 35 minutes ago, Xann said: It would be a challenge to get out of this situation with an intelligent electorate. After WW2 National Debt was 2.5 times the size of GDP. The problem is solvable but the absolute key is economic growth. Grow the economy quicker than the debt accumulates. That's what happened between the 40s and the 80s. National Debt was only 75% of GDP just a few decades later. It's why Labour keep banging on about growth in the Economy being key. My mortgage payments on my first house seemed enormous when I started them, now after 30 years of pay rises they'd be loose change today. Unfortunately the Tories seemed too pre occupied with infighting, trying to alienate the nation against Assylum seekers, lining pockets, destroying the green economy to appease their oil and gas mates and hating Europe to do anything about growing the economy and therefore solving multiple problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 It's about the character profiles of the people at the tiller. Whether it's government or the economy. It's a problem for Mankind, not just the UK. We haven't learned enough from history. The evidence of collapsed advanced civilisations are all over the globe. Now we can take down the plants and animals too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post markavfc40 Posted July 25 Popular Post Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: I personally dont think the comparisons are that much of a difference. You seem to be ignoring the fact how much damage leaving EU and covid did in the last 12 years (yes cameron gave the vote but i bet a lot of labour voters voted out as well as every other voting party) labour didnt have either of those during their term and i bet the country will be a mess regardless who was in power (as shown across the globe with many countries) Labour started the mess and the Conservatives continued making it worse. Im not going to give labour a free pass if things stay the same or get worse in next 12 years as thats how long i expect they remain in government. I do hope you will open to criticising labour when thwy do wrong not just back them because they are not the tories. A final point you are talking about child poverty and i note labour are not scraping the 2 child cap. Whats your position on that ? The differences are huge. For a start the NHS was running with pretty much record low waiting times in 2010. They have continuously risen since and have year on year been at record highs. Cameron called the referendum to appease the anti EU looney tunes in his own party and to fend off the threat of UKIP/Farage (that played out well didn't it). The Tories then compounded it all by striking a diabolical deal with the EU under Johnson that is now costing us hundreds of billions. That is solely on them. As for covid the fact we were so under prepared is again on the Tories. The NHS was already on it's knees at this point with waiting lists having doubled from 2.3 million in 2010 to 4.6 million in 2019. How did Labour start the mess exactly? public services, including the NHS, were arguably in the best shape they had ever been back in 2009/10. Surely you are not falling for the bollocks that they were responsible for the global financial crisis? they left behind a debt of 900 billion, absolute chicken feed compared to the 2.4 trillion now (1.8 trillion pre pandemic). The Tories have also left behind the biggest fall in living standards since the second world war and left the masses with the highest tax burden in 70 years. I will guarantee you one thing though. Labour will again, just as they did from 1997, improve the lot of the many. If they don't I'll be all over them like a rash with criticism. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Davkaus Posted July 25 Popular Post Share Posted July 25 The funny thing is it's only 4 weeks since we've had this exact conversation with @Demitri_C, right down to him bringing up the note and how it's not the tories fault the country is **** and it was covid, and @markavfc40 highlighting how the national debt, and it being pointed out that all these things were **** *before* covid Dem then goes on to ignore that point, and now here we are 4 weeks later having the exact same argument Page 3 to 5 of this thread, I had to go and look for it because I thought I was losing my goddamn mind, but you're wasting your breath mark 6 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post markavfc40 Posted July 25 Popular Post Share Posted July 25 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Davkaus said: but you're wasting your breath mark In fairness mate not as much as you might think as I am copying and pasting a lot of what I am repeating from my own previous posts Edited July 25 by markavfc40 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 33 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: The differences are huge. For a start the NHS was running with pretty much record low waiting times in 2010. They have continuously risen since and have year on year been at record highs. Cameron called the referendum to appease the anti EU looney tunes in his own party and to fend off the threat of UKIP/Farage (that played out well didn't it). The Tories then compounded it all by striking a diabolical deal with the EU under Johnson that is now costing us hundreds of billions. That is solely on them. As for covid the fact we were so under prepared is again on the Tories. The NHS was already on it's knees at this point with waiting lists having doubled from 2.3 million in 2010 to 4.6 million in 2019. How did Labour start the mess exactly? public services, including the NHS, were arguably in the best shape they had ever been back in 2009/10. Surely you are not falling for the bollocks that they were responsible for the global financial crisis? they left behind a debt of 900 billion, absolute chicken feed compared to the 2.4 trillion now (1.8 trillion pre pandemic). The Tories have also left behind the biggest fall in living standards since the second world war and left the masses with the highest tax burden in 70 years. I will guarantee you one thing though. Labour will again, just as they did from 1997, improve the lot of the many. If they don't I'll be all over them like a rash with criticism. One thing i would say about nhs (and im not defending the tories at all so please dont take it as that) the nhs would be in equal mess if labour was in charge during the covid period because of all the staffing issues, cancelled procedures etc. The waiting times would have still been ****. No one can control that. So although the majority of it is the tories fault if the pandemic would have happened during the labour years you would not have seen those stats that you alluded too. So we have to be fair here on that point. Since post covid GPS are not seeing as many patients now and opting for 'telephone appointments' this is something the tories created and its completed **** things as now its tough to get a gp appointment. I hope you are right. Its only faid to give labour a chance ive been critical on somethings alreafy but praised some of the ideas. Its a 'wait and see approach' for me. I just wish they would just stop talkinga bout all the mess they ahve inherited and get on with the job we know the tories **** things its nothing we don't already know. Camerons government were the same when they took over. Its really annoying 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phily85 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 I'm glad you have highlighted that because I thought I was losing my mind, thinking that I had already read this conversation previously 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 14 minutes ago, Davkaus said: The funny thing is it's only 4 weeks since we've had this exact conversation with @Demitri_C, right down to him bringing up the note and how it's not the tories fault the country is **** and it was covid, and @markavfc40 highlighting how the national debt, and it being pointed out that all these things were **** *before* covid Dem then goes on to ignore that point, and now here we are 4 weeks later having the exact same argument Page 3 to 5 of this thread, I had to go and look for it because I thought I was losing my goddamn mind, but you're wasting your breath mark Wasting his breath or engaging in a debate ? This is a forum after all and i did not "ignore his point " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 1 minute ago, Demitri_C said: I just wish they would just stop talkinga bout all the mess they ahve inherited and get on with the job we know the tories **** things its nothing we don't already know. Camerons government were the same when they took over. Its really annoying I can definitely see it grating fairly quickly, but you're being quite charitable saying Cameron's government were the same. Sunak was still banging on about 'the last Labour government' about 6 weeks ago, and Boris was at it every PMQs, we had 14 years of those pricks moaning about the previous Labour government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 And just to add this is what the debt added during covid if you think covid didnt add to our debt Click a significant amount of debt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 3 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I can definitely see it grating fairly quickly, but you're being quite charitable saying Cameron's government were the same. Sunak was still banging on about 'the last Labour government' about 6 weeks ago, and Boris was at it every PMQs, we had 14 years of those pricks moaning about the previous Labour government. And are we gonna have 14 years of these "pricks " moaning too? Im taking it they will be pricks too for moaning Fair is fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Davkaus Posted July 25 Popular Post Share Posted July 25 1 minute ago, Demitri_C said: Wasting his breath or engaging in a debate ? This is a forum after all and i did not "ignore his point " When it's the same debate with the same person, making the same points that have already been debunked, I'd say the former. The point has been made to you several times that yes, while Covid, Ukraine and Brexit would have been a challenge for any government, it's not like things were brilliant in 2020 and went to shit since then, they were running things into the ground way before that. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: And are we gonna have 14 years of these "pricks " moaning too? Im taking it they will be pricks too for moaning Fair is fair If it helps, you only have to go back a couple of pages to see me calling Starmer a dickhead 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, Davkaus said: The funny thing is it's only 4 weeks since we've had this exact conversation with @Demitri_C, right down to him bringing up the note and how it's not the tories fault the country is **** and it was covid, and @markavfc40 highlighting how the national debt, and it being pointed out that all these things were **** *before* covid Dem then goes on to ignore that point, and now here we are 4 weeks later having the exact same argument Page 3 to 5 of this thread, I had to go and look for it because I thought I was losing my goddamn mind, but you're wasting your breath mark What I'm interested in is why is Andrew Tate standing next to those electric scooters without the British police arresting him?! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: And just to add this is what the debt added during covid if you think covid didnt add to our debt Click a significant amount of debt Has anyone said that COVID didn't add a significant amount to national debt? Bottom line is that national debt has gone from 900 billion in 2010 to over 2.4 trillion now. That is an increase of 1.5 trillion. According to the link you posted the government estimate COVID cost between 310 and 410 billion so around 20 to 25% of the increase in national debt. Tens of those covid billions were also spunked into the pockets of Tory MPs friends/family and Tory donors. Edited July 25 by markavfc40 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 (edited) 3 hours ago, markavfc40 said: Has anyone said that COVID didn't add a significant amount to national debt? Bottom line is that national debt has gone from 900 billion in 2010 to over 2.4 trillion now. That is an increase of 1.5 trillion. According to the link you posted the government estimate COVID cost between 310 and 410 billion so around 20 to 25% of the increase in national debt. Tens of those covid billions were also spunked into the pockets of Tory MPs friends/family and Tory donors. People were dismissing my point about the covid debt before ive said this about 5 times?! I said thats a massive factor for our country being broke. But i do agree with your piint about alot of money being spunked during that period as well. Statistica have the furlough scheme costing around 70 billion pounds. I dont think any of us can say that was a waste of money as it protected jobs.what we can blame them for as you alluded to was the dodgy ppe contracts and the nhs waste. 1 hour ago, Jon said: Its the villatalk way my friend Edited July 25 by Demitri_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted July 25 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: People were dismissing my point about the covid debt before ive said this about 5 times?! I said thats a massive factor for our country being broke. But i do agree with your piint about alot of money being spunked during that period as well. Statistica have the furlough scheme costing around 70 billion pounds. I dont think any of us can say that was a waste of money as it protected jobs.what we can blame them for as you alluded to was the dodgy ppe contracts and the nhs waste. Its the villatalk way my friend Labour are trying to recover some.of the covid costs wasted by the tories lining their mates pockets. Im interested to know what your opinion on Trump is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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