The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

To shore up the party’s support on the left or because he believes in the cause? 

As it stands, I suspect this is lip service, however if it is as described then at least it's something he can be held to. I am looking for the disclaimer though. 

[bickster]

6 hours ago, Wainy316 said:

To shore up the party’s support on the left or because he believes in the cause? 

There’s plenty of photos of Starmer speaking at pro-Palestinian events in the past.

[limpid]

When did Palestine become a left / right issue?

Have the Palestinians been proposing communism or fascism? I can't even see how this would break down on the auth / lib axis.

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, limpid said:

Have the Palestinians been proposing communism or fascism?

Terrorism

[Panto_Villan]

9 hours ago, limpid said:

When did Palestine become a left / right issue?

Have the Palestinians been proposing communism or fascism? I can't even see how this would break down on the auth / lib axis.

Israel has been propped up by the US military for most of its existence. For a long time the question was a reasonable proxy of “what do you think about the US military-industrial complex?” and historically there’s a clear left / right divide on that question.

[limpid]

4 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Israel has been propped up by the US military for most of its existence. For a long time the question was a reasonable proxy of “what do you think about the US military-industrial complex?” and historically there’s a clear left / right divide on that question.

US politics isn't left / right, it's right / righter, but we are discussing that Labour is shifting further left because of a position about Palestine. I don't get it.

[Panto_Villan]

4 minutes ago, limpid said:

US politics isn't left / right, it's right / righter, but we are discussing that Labour is shifting further left because of a position about Palestine. I don't get it.

At the risk of repeating myself - Starmer is shoring up support from the left of his party by being more overtly pro-Palestine, because very left people also tend to be very pro-Palestine.

If you want the historical reason for that, it’s because very left people tended to side with the Soviets rather than the US in the Cold War, and therefore Israel is a right-wing cause and Palestine is a left-wing cause (much more nuanced than that in practice but that’s the core of the issue.)

[limpid]

9 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

At the risk of repeating myself - Starmer is shoring up support from the left of his party by being more overtly pro-Palestine, because very left people also tend to be very pro-Palestine.

If you want the historical reason for that, it’s because very left people tended to side with the Soviets rather than the US in the Cold War, and therefore Israel is a right-wing cause and Palestine is a left-wing cause (much more nuanced than that in practice but that’s the core of the issue.)

Sorry for making you repeat yourself. I though you'd just gone off topic talking about US politics.

I don't understand why Israel / Palestine is left / right. If it's just because of something from before the wall fell then no wonder it makes little sense to me. Times change.

[ml1dch]

 

[icouldtelltheworld]

10 minutes ago, limpid said:

Sorry for making you repeat yourself. I though you'd just gone off topic talking about US politics.

I don't understand why Israel / Palestine is left / right. If it's just because of something from before the wall fell then no wonder it makes little sense to me. Times change.

I doubt it was seen as a left/right issue for the first few decades after the foundation of Israel - if anything I'd imagine there was some left wing support for Zionism given the holocaust.

I'd assume it's become a left/right issue due to the growing perception that the state of Israel is a colonial project, with left wing people tending towards sympathy with populations they frame as victims of colonisation

I'd also assume there's a sub-set of right wing headbangers who are anti-Israel because antisemites gonna antisemite, although that would be a minority version on the right, and it isn't the same as being pro-Palestinian

Edited June 7 by icouldtelltheworld

[sidcow]

Halfway down page 4 a couple of weeks out of an election? 

According to The Observer Labour's economic plans don't add up without a better trading relationship with The EU. 

Hmmmm. I wonder how on earth are they going to solve that Conundrum. 

[bickster]

14 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Hmmmm. I wonder how on earth are they going to solve that Conundrum. 

The honest answer is not effectively enough because it won’t be inside the single market because they are too timid to do that and they are repeatedly on record as saying they won’t.

The rise of Farage won’t make that any easier for them.

[sidcow]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

The honest answer is not effectively enough because it won’t be inside the single market because they are too timid to do that and they are repeatedly on record as saying they won’t.

The rise of Farage won’t make that any easier for them.

There will be loads we can do without actually re-joining.

In fact merely talking to them respectfully instead of with a sneer will probably see many doors open that were previously closed. 

[limpid]

18 minutes ago, sidcow said:

There will be loads we can do without actually re-joining.

In fact merely talking to them respectfully instead of with a sneer will probably see many doors open that were previously closed. 

Access to the single market is currently only available with freedom of movement of labour.

A trade deal is most likely. Like the "oven ready" one we had a few years ago. It means accepting some regulations but is much more likely to be achieved. t'll need to match up with the conditions of the GFA to be acceptable.

[LondonLax]

I don’t think the U.K. will rejoin the single market in my lifetime, freedom of movement is just too contentious, but there is a good chance it rejoins the customs union.
No more customs controls on imports/export goods but no more ability to make unilateral trade deals with countries outside of the EU. 

[limpid]

11 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I don’t think the U.K. will rejoin the single market in my lifetime, freedom of movement is just too contentious, but there is a good chance it rejoins the customs union.
No more customs controls on imports/export goods but no more ability to make unilateral trade deals with countries outside of the EU. 

To remove all the customs controls would require regulatory alignment. Everything we make or grow will have to be within the EU regulations. Personally, that's fine with me, but "sovrinty".

[LondonLax]

3 minutes ago, limpid said:

To remove all the customs controls would require regulatory alignment. Everything we make or grow will have to be within the EU regulations. Personally, that's fine with me, but "sovrinty".

Yes, there will be complaints from certain quarters but that is a bit of an idealistic discussion which doesn’t have so much real world opposition.

However telling people a concrete proposal like ‘we’re going to allow unlimited migration of Polish, Romanian, Czech workers into the U.K. again’, well that is going to meet swift and fierce opposition, and from a much bigger section of U.K. society. 

[limpid]

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

Yes, there will be complaints from certain quarters but that is a bit of an idealistic discussion which doesn’t have so much real world opposition.

However telling people a concrete proposal like ‘we’re going to allow unlimited migration of Polish, Romanian, Czech workers into the U.K. again’, well that is going to meet swift and fierce opposition, and from a much bigger section of U.K. society. 

That's probably accurate. I think we would struggle to get Polish people to come here to work though.

[magnkarl]

As far as I gather Poland is getting quite close to the UK in living standard and salary, why would Poles want to come here? The Polish government is even offering slashed taxes if you return as a previous emigrated Pole.

Let’s be honest, it might not be such an amazing aspiration to move to the UK for much of the EU when they can move to countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany +++ and not have to deal with Nigel Farage calling them dirty immigrants and completely without any red tape stopping them in the internal market.

[LondonLax]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

As far as I gather Poland is getting quite close to the UK in living standard and salary, why would Poles want to come here? The Polish government is even offering slashed taxes if you return as a previous emigrated Pole.

Let’s be honest, it might not be such an amazing aspiration to move to the UK for much of the EU when they can move to countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany +++ and not have to deal with Nigel Farage calling them dirty immigrants and completely without any red tape stopping them in the internal market.

It’s the language. Many people looking to move for better wages see the UK as their first option because they already know English to a certain degree. The language barrier makes it much tougher to move to those other countries you mentioned. Nigel Farage is not a factor, all those other countries also have their own versions of Nigal Farage making the same sorts of claims he does.