blandy Posted April 17, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 17, 2023 15 minutes ago, Seat68 said: He didn't, one is talking about victims, one is talking about perpetrators. The times article is behind a paywall so can't see Rob Liddles nuanced comments. To be fair, the victims and perpetrators largely come from the same, er, demographic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) Labour being pressured by the NEU to include free school meals for primary aged kids in England as part of its manifesto. Labour not particularly giving ground at this moment. I get we are all waiting for the big policy reveal but on issues like this, if they don't differentiate from the tories soon, why would anyone vote for them simply because they are saying they'd be less shit? Get Marcus Rashford front and centre and commit to free school meals, it's not hard. Edited April 18, 2023 by Jareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2023 25 minutes ago, Jareth said: if they don't differentiate from the tories soon What is this nonsense? Are the Tory Party committed to scrapping their own Anti-Union legislation? There are plenty of other glaringly obvious differentiations pretty much across the policy spectrum but I mention the above in particular because of the sea change in policy, that the left / unions should approve of that indicates Labour's path ahead for policy Freeze Council Tax, paid for by windfall tax on Oil and Gas companies Re-introduction of neighbourhood policing Free Breakfast clubs in Primary Schools (paid for by abolishing Non Dom Status) Do any of those sound like the Tory Party? They are already quite clearly not the same 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 Lab 44 % (LAB -1 from 9th April) Con 29 % Politico GE Poll https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ April 14th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 55 minutes ago, bickster said: They are already quite clearly not the same That's not the perception they're going for at the moment - but of course, we see this differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Jareth said: That's not the perception they're going for at the moment - but of course, we see this differently. Yes I see it objectively as I'm not voting Labour as it currently stands. You on the other hand appear to be basing your statements on your own biases and not any kind of analysis There is nothing wrong with that as such but I find that saying Labour are the same as the Tory Party doesn't really stack up when you look at the currently announced policy differences and the currently announced policies are massively different, with a completely different focus as you'd hope for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 3 hours ago, bickster said: Yes I see it objectively as I'm not voting Labour as it currently stands. You on the other hand appear to be basing your statements on your own biases and not any kind of analysis There is nothing wrong with that as such but I find that saying Labour are the same as the Tory Party doesn't really stack up when you look at the currently announced policy differences and the currently announced policies are massively different, with a completely different focus as you'd hope for. Disagree. So too a lot of politics commentators. Easy enough to find them on t’internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2023 23 minutes ago, Jareth said: Disagree. So too a lot of politics commentators. Easy enough to find them on t’internet. Yeah, that really isn't an answer. Those political commentators will be the ones that reflect your own biases. We all do it's a natural thing to do But when you look at the currently announced policies, they are miles apart. I gave you just a few brief examples, I notice you haven't disputed them so you must think they align with Tory policy and ideology (they clearly do not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 1 hour ago, bickster said: Yeah, that really isn't an answer. Those political commentators will be the ones that reflect your own biases. We all do it's a natural thing to do But when you look at the currently announced policies, they are miles apart. I gave you just a few brief examples, I notice you haven't disputed them so you must think they align with Tory policy and ideology (they clearly do not) How do you account for the fact that they are both chasing the same small group of ‘hero voters’? Politics is about this group that will deliver the next election. How radically different is Labour’s message to them other than ‘you can trust us we are less shit?’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 7 hours ago, Jareth said: That's not the perception they're going for at the moment - but of course, we see this differently. Nonsense. The Corbynite left can’t accept that their electoral strategy was bonkers and Starmer actually knows what he’s doing, so they’re reduced to throwing Tory Lite accusations at him while he slowly works his way to the first Labour majority in over a decade. It’s very obvious from just a cursory glance at the Labour MPs and candidates that they will be a different party with different priorities. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 12 minutes ago, Jareth said: How do you account for the fact that they are both chasing the same small group of ‘hero voters’? Politics is about this group that will deliver the next election. How radically different is Labour’s message to them other than ‘you can trust us we are less shit?’ Those voters aren’t true blue Tories though. That’s the whole point. And each party will naturally appeal to those same voters on different strengths and policy areas. Just because you’re trying to win over the same voters at the margins doesn’t mean you stand for identical things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 32 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Those voters aren’t true blue Tories though. That’s the whole point. And each party will naturally appeal to those same voters on different strengths and policy areas. Just because you’re trying to win over the same voters at the margins doesn’t mean you stand for identical things. They’re not the margins - they’re the main battle ground - both parties want them - and will tailor their message to get them. Hence starmer is in lock step with the tories. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 No he isn’t. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2023 9 minutes ago, Jareth said: They’re not the margins - they’re the main battle ground - both parties want them - and will tailor their message to get them. Hence starmer is in lock step with the tories. The margins are the battleground, its the same thing. The core doesn't need persuading Let's try this another way. Which Labour policies are the same as the Tory ones? SO far you've not challenged or even commented on the policies I mentioned, you just keep ploughing on with your same point citing ZERO evidence to back it up 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2023 6 minutes ago, bickster said: Which Labour policies are the same as the Tory ones? All the ones the tories stole! - like windfall tax, energy price cap, that kind of thing. All the things they said were terrible, until they decided they might be a good idea after all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 The core don't need persuading? Starmer has lost 3 Labour votes in this house alone. I know he's lost my neighbours opposite too, so that's 5. Maybe seems nothing but how far does it spread? When I was a member, the people who actually bothered to go to CLP meetings were pretty left wing generally and now they're not even standing a candidate here for the local elections last I checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2023 Just now, blandy said: All the ones the tories stole! - like windfall tax, energy price cap, that kind of thing. All the things they said were terrible, until they decided they might be a good idea after all. Well yes quite! Labour lead the line on both of those. The Tories criticised them for it and then enacted them because they were popular. People also saw through that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2023 32 minutes ago, villaajax said: The core don't need persuading? Starmer has lost 3 Labour votes in this house alone. I know he's lost my neighbours opposite too, so that's 5. So by definition, you aren't their core voters because you aren't voting for them Which of Labour's policies do you object to that have caused to to cast your vote elsewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 1 hour ago, bickster said: Which Labour policies are the same as the Tory ones? SO far you've not challenged or even commented on the policies I mentioned, you just keep ploughing on with your same point citing ZERO evidence to back it up Where are they both on the biggest issue at the previous election - Brexit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, Jareth said: Where are they both on the biggest issue at the previous election - Brexit? That it is a thing that has happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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