Jareth Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Tories will be calling a GE at the absolute last moment. They need time to detoxify what's happened. I bet this time next year the polls will be looking quite different, such short memories the public has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jareth said: Tories will be calling a GE at the absolute last moment. They need time to detoxify what's happened. I bet this time next year the polls will be looking quite different, such short memories the public has. Yeah agree. Right now Labour look a decent option. But above all who ever the next tory leader/pm is - I just hope we move away from this nationalistic , intolerant, xenophobic nonsense of the last few years - It really isnt helping anyone and is downright dangerous imo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 8, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Jareth said: Tories will be calling a GE at the absolute last moment. They need time to detoxify what's happened. I bet this time next year the polls will be looking quite different, such short memories the public has. Can't see it. The very last date they can call an election is 17th December 2024, the election must be within 25 days of that They can thank Boris for that too The country won't thank them for a General Election Campaign over the Xmas period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 8, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 8, 2022 Either way there's not a chance the party is having an election any time soon. Fighting an election when you just binned your personality cult leader, in the middle of an economic crisis that everyone is getting hammered by, while you've got a queue of strike actions backing up, have yet to really face the chickens coming home to roost on decisions made in recent years, and no chance of things getting better very quickly, is madness. Unfortunately we've got a good year, at least, of whoever replaces Johnson, and that's a year where they can try to get things improving, bury the corpse of Johnson, and uncover Labour's plans to impose an 18m tall robo-Corbyn on the country and cover Cumbria in concentration camps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 19 minutes ago, Jareth said: They need time to detoxify what's happened. "I've spent ten years detoxifying this party. It's been a bit like renovating an old, old house, yeah? You can take out a sexist beam here, a callous window there, replace the odd homophobic roof tile. But after a while you realise that this renovation is doomed. Because the foundations are built on what I can only describe as a solid bed of words removed" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted July 8, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 8, 2022 31 minutes ago, hippo said: Yeah agree. Right now Labour look a decent option. But above all who ever the next tory leader/pm is - I just hope we move away from this nationalistic , intolerant, xenophobic nonsense of the last few years - It really isnt helping anyone and is downright dangerous imo I don't think labour do you look a decent option, they don't look bad compared to a bungling Boris but once another blue blooded Tory takes over as long as they don't get nicked for murder they can easily overturn Labours lead. Most voters were against Boris ( recent local elections) not for Labour , they don't stand for anything, a shit show of vagueness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, tinker said: I don't think labour do you look a decent option, they don't look bad compared to a bungling Boris but once another blue blooded Tory takes over as long as they don't get nicked for murder they can easily overturn Labours lead. Most voters were against Boris ( recent local elections) not for Labour , they don't stand for anything, a shit show of vagueness. No party in opposition or in government will do everything as you please. But in recent times the windfall tax was a labour idea. Personally I thing there are a lot of right wing headbangers in the Tory party - For me getting such people away from office is imperative. We had 12 years of the Tory government of one flavour or another. I think its time the opposition had a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted July 8, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 8, 2022 57 minutes ago, hippo said: No party in opposition or in government will do everything as you please. But in recent times the windfall tax was a labour idea. Personally I thing there are a lot of right wing headbangers in the Tory party - For me getting such people away from office is imperative. We had 12 years of the Tory government of one flavour or another. I think its time the opposition had a chance. I don't want them in power either, never have. I do understand why people vote for them, if they don't shoot themselves in the foot by electing an idiot then, if labour remain bystanders, they will be close to another term. I don't like this fact, I hate it. But labour are in a position where they can't really win.....unless. These recent strikes are showing a glimmer of hope for me that workers can grab back some of the initiative from big businesses. I see a swing in public opinion away from all strikes are bad to maybe there's a case for some under the circumstances we find ourselves in, high inflation. All I have seen In my lifetime is working class employment benefits being smashed , hard won pensions , bonuses, shift allowances , sick pay all negotiated away to keep jobs that eventually go anyway. Labour are supposed to fight for these rights, they don't , they sit on their hands and have let the working class down , this is why we are in a mess . They have sold out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 8, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 8, 2022 46 minutes ago, tinker said: All I have seen In my lifetime is working class employment benefits being smashed , hard won pensions , bonuses, shift allowances , sick pay all negotiated away to keep jobs that eventually go anyway. Labour are supposed to fight for these rights, they don't , they sit on their hands and have let the working class down , this is why we are in a mess . They have sold out. Those things happened while the tories were in power - When Labour had no ability to do anything. When Labour was in power those things didn’t happen. Therefore to simple me, Labour > tories. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted July 8, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 8, 2022 2 hours ago, blandy said: Those things happened while the tories were in power - When Labour had no ability to do anything. When Labour was in power those things didn’t happen. Therefore to simple me, Labour > tories. I agree but there's is no real difference between the Tories and labour...... labour aren't supporting the striking rail workers who, as far as I can see, have a valid reason to be striking. If they don't support the working class, the unions who made the party , then what are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 8, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 8, 2022 19 hours ago, tinker said: I agree but there's is no real difference between the Tories and labour...... labour aren't supporting the striking rail workers who, as far as I can see, have a valid reason to be striking. If they don't support the working class, the unions who made the party , then what are they? What you’re actually witnessing there is a classic left v left battle. The RMT isn’t a Labour Party Union. It has its own party TUSC which it formed with The Socialist Party and a few other small hard left parties. It’s essentially a Trotskyite Party. A coalition of Unions (NUT, RMT, FBU etc) and The Socialist Party. It’s a classic Trotskyite campaigning tool where they appear to be a large number of leftist organisations working together but in reality it’s The Socialist Party. The Socialist Party is one half of the split in the Militant Tendency, the half that didn’t want to be entryist. Because of who the RMT is run by, it would be absolutely mana from heaven for the right wing media if Labour supported that strike. It would undo all the decorbynisation that the party has done in an attempt to make it electable. I suspect that the Labour Party has a great deal of sympathy for the rail workers but it would be electoral suicide if they backed the strike. They seem to have taken the option to distance themselves from it for the greater good. Pragmatism over principals if you like. A sacrifice for the greater good. It’s just another Life of Brian moment in UK left politics (or to be honest left politics the world over) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 14 hours ago, bickster said: What you’re actually witnessing there is a classic left v left battle. The RMT isn’t a Labour Party Union. It has its own party TUSC which it formed with The Socialist Party and a few other small hard left parties. It’s essentially a Trotskyite Party. A coalition of Unions (NUT, RMT, FBU etc) and The Socialist Party. It’s a classic Trotskyite campaigning tool where they appear to be a large number of leftist organisations working together but in reality it’s The Socialist Party. The Socialist Party is one half of the split in the Militant Tendency, the half that didn’t want to be entryist. Because of who the RMT is run by, it would be absolutely mana from heaven for the right wing media if Labour supported that strike. It would undo all the decobynisation that the party has done in an attempt to make it electable. I suspect that the Labour Party has a great deal of sympathy for the rail workers but it would be electoral suicide if they backed the strike. They seem to have taken the option to distance themselves from it for the greater good. Pragmatism over principals if you like. A sacrifice for the greater good. It’s just another Life of Brian moment in UK left politics (or to be honest left politics the world over) The other thing is people don't like change. Imo you won't go from a right wing government to a full blown left wing one. Cameron in opposition had to move to the left - likewise starmer has moved labour towards the right (All in relative terms of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 16 hours ago, bickster said: What you’re actually witnessing there is a classic left v left battle. The RMT isn’t a Labour Party Union. It has its own party TUSC which it formed with The Socialist Party and a few other small hard left parties. It’s essentially a Trotskyite Party. A coalition of Unions (NUT, RMT, FBU etc) and The Socialist Party. It’s a classic Trotskyite campaigning tool where they appear to be a large number of leftist organisations working together but in reality it’s The Socialist Party. The Socialist Party is one half of the split in the Militant Tendency, the half that didn’t want to be entryist. Because of who the RMT is run by, it would be absolutely mana from heaven for the right wing media if Labour supported that strike. It would undo all the decobynisation that the party has done in an attempt to make it electable. I suspect that the Labour Party has a great deal of sympathy for the rail workers but it would be electoral suicide if they backed the strike. They seem to have taken the option to distance themselves from it for the greater good. Pragmatism over principals if you like. A sacrifice for the greater good. It’s just another Life of Brian moment in UK left politics (or to be honest left politics the world over) Can't help but think you view the RMT in negative terms, they do a fine job for their members and other unions should take note. Whatever the ideology, they are effective and we are better as a country for their example. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted July 9, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted July 9, 2022 4 hours ago, Jareth said: Can't help but think you view the RMT in negative terms, they do a fine job for their members and other unions should take note. Whatever the ideology, they are effective and we are better as a country for their example. I think they are at the forefront of a surge in unions and their power. I'm too young to remember the early 70's but I know inflation was high and unions were strong, maybe it wasn't coincidence? High inflation means higher wages are needed and unions are affective at negotiating for higher wages. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 30 minutes ago, tinker said: I think they are at the forefront of a surge in unions and their power. I'm too young to remember the early 70's but I know inflation was high and unions were strong, maybe it wasn't coincidence? High inflation means higher wages are needed and unions are affective at negotiating for higher wages. I have union reps in the family - they aren't at all political, they only want fairness and to ensure that people are not exploited, often by managers who don't actually realise the rules. I wish they weren't painted as some far left agitators, it's entirely about balancing power between employees and employers - we all have jobs. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 11, 2022 Author Share Posted July 11, 2022 On 09/07/2022 at 19:49, Jareth said: I have union reps in the family - they aren't at all political, they only want fairness and to ensure that people are not exploited, often by managers who don't actually realise the rules. I wish they weren't painted as some far left agitators, it's entirely about balancing power between employees and employers - we all have jobs. I think its hit and miss with unions. Under my trust its unison and they are absolutely hopeless. Staff who work at our the trust are union reps and if someone has a grievance against a high level ops managers/or one of their "mates" then nothing at all rarely happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 On 08/07/2022 at 16:51, bickster said: Can't see it. The very last date they can call an election is 17th December 2024, the election must be within 25 days of that They can thank Boris for that too The country won't thank them for a General Election Campaign over the Xmas period Well traditionally it was said that bad weather affects the Labour vote more than Tory but as most Conservative voters are older and live in more rural areas than Labour not sure if this is accurate nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 On 09/07/2022 at 19:49, Jareth said: I have union reps in the family - they aren't at all political, they only want fairness and to ensure that people are not exploited, often by managers who don't actually realise the rules. I wish they weren't painted as some far left agitators, it's entirely about balancing power between employees and employers - we all have jobs. You have to be kidding, have you seen that idiot representing the rail workers. "We want a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies." What business in the world can guarantee that? Not political, my arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Genie Posted July 11, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2022 18 minutes ago, Risso said: You have to be kidding, have you seen that idiot representing the rail workers. "We want a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies." What business in the world can guarantee that? Not political, my arse. Its quite common to guarantee no compulsory redundancies for a period of time during a negotiation isn’t it? I’ve seen it several of times during negotiations in my industry (automotive). 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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