Popular Post bickster Posted June 24, 2022 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 24, 2022 Just now, Jareth said: With a Lab/Lib coalition we could sneak PR into the equation I've said it for a while now, that is my hope. Before we fix anything else, fixing democracy should be the first priority otherwise this shit keeps happening 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 24, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2022 Oh, here's a fact for the people who don't like Starmer As much as I said the result isn't THAT great for Labour, it is the first by-election they've managed to win from an incumbent party since 2012. They literally hadn't taken a Tory seat at a by-election for a decade So in a completely puerile way.. Milliband 0 Corbyn 0 Starmer 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 24, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2022 5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: They came very close to being elected on that platform when it was fronted by a bloke that looked like he'd been dragged out of a real ale festival dressed as a scarecrow - people want policies that shake things up - they want them presented properly, but the policies are overwhelmingly popular. People are desperate for a party that represents the interests of society over business, that represents normal working people, they could call it Labour or something similar to reflect that. I'm not sure this isn't a bit superficial (in terms of what people say they want, not your analysis). I'm not saying people are wrong, more that they (we) often don't actually vote for what what we apparently want and even then what we thought we wanted, we then often don't get. Corbyn didn't get elected when faced with Theresa May "nothing's changed" imploding. And he got an absolute shoeing when faced with an effective campaigner. For all that Labour's (and I mostly liked them) policies under Corbyn were popular amongst a chunk of the population, they didn't carry the day - "get Brexit done" and "oven ready deal" did, even though they were complete lies. Now maybe you're right that things have changed from that situation and People are now desperate for a party that represents the interests of society over business, that represents normal working people, but I'm not sure they will vote that way to the exclusion of other factors. They didn't on any previous occasion. Sure, the pandemic, and Brexit has changed the world in which we live and then add in Ukraine and gas and Oil prices and maybe, hopefully, a huge judder will have happened/will happen to the way "people" think and behave and vote, yet I still feel that whether it's Corbyn or Mick Lynch or some other "radical" that type of figure is unlikely to win an election for Labour. They are too divisive, basically, for the British/English people as a whole. What "we" seem to vote for is someone more charismatic than Starmer, but someone who looks and sounds "reasonable" and "dynamic" and "assured" across a range of subjects. Someone with a hopeful message of better times and someone not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Cameron won because he said he liked the NHS and Green things, Johnson won because he said everything would be great and he'd end the Brexit deadlock and deliver levelling up - people wanted nice things. If Labour were to stand on a Mick Lynch type of standpoint, they'd get murdered. They need to be really careful how they present things, or they'll scare too many horses. They might appeal to you and I, but not too a large chunk of society if they're not careful. At the moment they're probably too careful, although they may be happy to just sit on their hands while the tories self destruct, at some point they're going to need to start looking like they're proper ready to take over the running of the Country, and that means presenting what it will look like when they get voted in. You can go on their website and look at a whole bunch of stuff, but nobody does that, they need it sold to them with a story. Which ought to be pretty easy. They need to be doing it in the 21-18 months up to the next election, to give it time to bed in with people. I hope they do. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 48 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: If Labour / Starmer cannot effectively capitalise on being in the fortunate position of opposing one of the worst governments in living history then they don’t deserve to replace them. Said it before but at a time when people need something spicy, Starmer just keeps serving up more vanilla. Thing is everything is stacked in the tories favour. They have backing of big media influence rs , they are slowly dismantling anything which isn't big business driven, the BBC, C4, NHS. They also have a lot easy headline grabbing policies - immigration, Low Tax and of course Brexit. The system massively favours the Tories. next election is still there to lose for the Tories IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, blandy said: I'm not sure this isn't a bit superficial (in terms of what people say they want, not your analysis). I'm not saying people are wrong, more that they (we) often don't actually vote for what what we apparently want and even then what we thought we wanted, we then often don't get. Corbyn didn't get elected when faced with Theresa May "nothing's changed" imploding. And he got an absolute shoeing when faced with an effective campaigner. For all that Labour's (and I mostly liked them) policies under Corbyn were popular amongst a chunk of the population, they didn't carry the day - "get Brexit done" and "oven ready deal" did, even though they were complete lies. Now maybe you're right that things have changed from that situation and People are now desperate for a party that represents the interests of society over business, that represents normal working people, but I'm not sure they will vote that way to the exclusion of other factors. They didn't on any previous occasion. Sure, the pandemic, and Brexit has changed the world in which we live and then add in Ukraine and gas and Oil prices and maybe, hopefully, a huge judder will have happened/will happen to the way "people" think and behave and vote, yet I still feel that whether it's Corbyn or Mick Lynch or some other "radical" that type of figure is unlikely to win an election for Labour. They are too divisive, basically, for the British/English people as a whole. What "we" seem to vote for is someone more charismatic than Starmer, but someone who looks and sounds "reasonable" and "dynamic" and "assured" across a range of subjects. Someone with a hopeful message of better times and someone not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Cameron won because he said he liked the NHS and Green things, Johnson won because he said everything would be great and he'd end the Brexit deadlock and deliver levelling up - people wanted nice things. If Labour were to stand on a Mick Lynch type of standpoint, they'd get murdered. They need to be really careful how they present things, or they'll scare too many horses. They might appeal to you and I, but not too a large chunk of society if they're not careful. At the moment they're probably too careful, although they may be happy to just sit on their hands while the tories self destruct, at some point they're going to need to start looking like they're proper ready to take over the running of the Country, and that means presenting what it will look like when they get voted in. You can go on their website and look at a whole bunch of stuff, but nobody does that, they need it sold to them with a story. Which ought to be pretty easy. They need to be doing it in the 21-18 months up to the next election, to give it time to bed in with people. I hope they do. Totally bang on. Agree every word. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 31 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: They came very close to being elected on that platform when it was fronted by a bloke that looked like he'd been dragged out of a real ale festival dressed as a scarecrow - people want policies that shake things up - they want them presented properly, but the policies are overwhelmingly popular. People are desperate for a party that represents the interests of society over business, that represents normal working people, they could call it Labour or something similar to reflect that. And this is probably a personal thing but for me, if I was to draw up my vision of a perfect leader for the UK, their title wouldn’t begin with ‘sir’. In fact, the kind of person I would like to see as PM would tell them to shove a knighthood/peerage etc back up their arses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 19 minutes ago, bickster said: Oh, here's a fact for the people who don't like Starmer As much as I said the result isn't THAT great for Labour, it is the first by-election they've managed to win from an incumbent party since 2012. They literally hadn't taken a Tory seat at a by-election for a decade So in a completely puerile way.. Milliband 0 Corbyn 0 Starmer 1 That 2012 one was under Miliband so starting it from his gain and putting him at 0 is a bit disingenuous 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 40 minutes ago, Jareth said: With a Lab/Lib coalition we could sneak PR into the equation. Labour offer that in their manifesto and the Libs help them implement it. Would Labour do it though? I can see them getting a bit blinded by the chance at power. Maybe labour would do a deal with the greens if they do well although i accept its highly unlikely as i think they only have one mp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 24, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2022 22 minutes ago, Davkaus said: That 2012 one was under Miliband so starting it from his gain and putting him at 0 is a bit disingenuous Fair comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 49 minutes ago, bickster said: Oh, here's a fact for the people who don't like Starmer As much as I said the result isn't THAT great for Labour, it is the first by-election they've managed to win from an incumbent party since 2012. They literally hadn't taken a Tory seat at a by-election for a decade So in a completely puerile way.. Milliband 0 Corbyn 0 Starmer 1 Starmer's had more incumbent by-elections however, most under Miliband and Corbyn were Labour by-elections. Milliband had 5/19 in 5 years, Corbyn 4/14 in 4 years and Starmer's had 6/9 in 2 years. I feel it's easier to win from an incumbent when the incumbent's are dropping like flies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 24, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said: I feel it's easier to win from an incumbent when the incumbent's are dropping like flies. Well yes obviously but it was just a counter to Starmer can't win and nothing more 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted June 24, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 24, 2022 2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: But sensible isn't a continuation of corporatism - regardless of Boris being a waste of skin, it's the underlying politics of corporate control that are the root cause of most of the problems we have currently - we need a departure from that and the means some sort of radicalism - being robbed by a bunch of bankers fronted by a horrible dick with a mop of blonde hair and no morals if awful, being robbed by a bunch of bankers fronted by a pleasant enough quiet fella in a suit is still awful. It's not sensible to carry on as we are but with a nicer executioner - the orthodoxy or corporatism, either in it's form of unashamed Conservative greed or in the guise of 'centrism' is the problem - Starmer is the same problem but with vaseline. Would that it were possible but too many people are easily swayed by things like this: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 25, 2022 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2022 I see everyone’s favourite, can't be- next leader of the Labour Party, Andy Burnham has called for Labour to support PR Well obviously I'm not going to disagree with him on that one. More Labour types need to be saying this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, bickster said: I see everyone’s favourite, can't be- next leader of the Labour Party, Andy Burnham has called for Labour to support PR Of course he can. Spoiler Stands as an MP in the 2028 election, straight into the cabinet, takes over, Gordon Brown-style part of the way through Starmer's third term in 2034. *troll emoji* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 On 06/03/2019 at 22:13, magnkarl said: The leadership of Labour can't even defend Chris Williamson anymore, that says it all. He used to be so far up Blair's behind that you couldn't see his socks, and now he's trying to do the same with Corbyn. He's a vile, reactionary idiot who got removed from his Shadow Cabinet position for a reason. The journey for the Vanarama League version of George Galloway continues apace. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, ml1dch said: The journey for the Vanarama League version of George Galloway continues apace. Classic. Twitter’s tags on certain people are comedy gold. Especially considering people like GG and CW thinks Twitter is life. When’s Corbyn’s tag coming? He’s taken money from Iranian authorities plenty of times. Edited June 26, 2022 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 Vote Labour, get… well, what exactly? Certainly not your 10% pay cut reinstated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 **** off Lammy. Most of us are feeling the pinch. Not you on your 84k, eh? Have you taken a 10% pay cut? Have you ****. I'd rather shit on the ballot paper than vote for this Labour party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 Strikers should have this put on placards and be asking where the Labour party are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow1988 Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 45 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Vote Labour, get… well, what exactly? Certainly not your 10% pay cut reinstated. Somebody is planning to fly out of Heathrow for his summer holidays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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