Davkaus Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just now, desensitized43 said: I think all you're doing here is playing into the Tory hands. They'd want an action like this to cause discontent and infighting about left and centrism in Labour. See it for what it is, Johnson and by extension the Tories getting a kick in the shins by one of their own. That can't be a bad thing. This is a bit simplistic, IMO. The logical conclusion is we should never criticise anything Labour do, because tories benefit from it. Politics shouldn't be as black and white as that, it's how you end up with the kind of ridiculously toxic nonsense we see in the US where every single issue is fought along partisan lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 29 minutes ago, Rodders said: I'll assess Starmer's electoral capacities in the month or two before the election, because frankly, until then determining what Starmer or whoever stands for at this point is a waste of time. The whole a week's a long time in politics aphorism is never more relevant in the constant 24/7 cycle. If Boris goes, the whole pandemic and lying leader will still have next to no relevance come election time for the undecideds. That applies to Mr invisible too. I just hate the tories, but there are a lot of people who keep voting for these clearings in the woods. By the time of the election, we'll have had 15 years of these arseholes. I am conceding, perhaps defeatestly so, we might have to go through step change to get a better future rather than a wholesale shift in attitude. I would and did vote for Corbyn btw. It’s not binary, there are other options, and we have better meetings, and biscuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 38 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Regardless of which party to which party, it simply shouldn’t be allowed. If I was a voter that got someone elected as a rep of a party with a set of views and principles and policies and that MP then decided to switch to something else entirely, then he no longer has my vote. But there’s nothing I can do? Can’t even try a recall petition. It’s a poor system. Westminster isn’t working. You simply assess what the MP has achieved in their time as your representative and cast your vote for or against them at the next election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, LondonLax said: You simply assess what the MP has achieved in their time as your representative and cast your vote for or against them at the next election. Talk me through how that works with voting for the tory, Christian Wakeford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 15 minutes ago, Davkaus said: This is a bit simplistic, IMO. The logical conclusion is we should never criticise anything Labour do, because tories benefit from it. Politics shouldn't be as black and white as that, it's how you end up with the kind of ridiculously toxic nonsense we see in the US where every single issue is fought along partisan lines. I'm not saying not to criticise everything that they say or do but this constant "you're not left enough" or "you're too far left" stuff is so boring and really benefits no one other than the Tory party by hurting the opposition, regardless of that you think of them. There's only one objective and that's to get the Tories out. If they're to be replaced by something you regard as "Tory-lite" surely that's preferable to "Tory-full" even if it's not ideal? Until we get proper PR we'll never have a situation where you're voting for what you want rather than the least bad option. While we have what is in-effect if not in practice a 2 party state what hurts one party only benefits the other. That's just the country as it is right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 48 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Regardless of which party to which party, it simply shouldn’t be allowed. If I was a voter that got someone elected as a rep of a party with a set of views and principles and policies and that MP then decided to switch to something else entirely, then he no longer has my vote. But there’s nothing I can do? Can’t even try a recall petition. It’s a poor system. Westminster isn’t working. That's the perks of democracy. It's not Westminster, other countries have identical problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Talk me through how that works with voting for the tory, Christian Wakeford. There will be an election at the end of the Parliament term and if you like what he has achieved you vote for him, if you don’t you vote for one of the other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, LondonLax said: There will be an election at the end of the Parliament term and if you like what he has achieved you vote for him, if you don’t you vote for one of the other options. But when people voted for him, he was the anti labour choice. Now, today, he’s the Labour MP and there isn’t an election for years. That’s not a functioning democracy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 19, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2022 If we had PR with a list system any MP changing sides would have to stand down and the next candidate on the list from the previous election list would assume the seat as people then did vote for a Party and not an individual. At least I presume that is what would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 19, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: But when people voted for him, he was the anti labour choice. Now, today, he’s the Labour MP and there isn’t an election for years. That’s not a functioning democracy. Strangely though, I suspect many of his constituents actually feel the same as him, it's the only time a Tory has won the seat since 1997 and his majority was less than 400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just now, bickster said: If we had PR with a list system any MP changing sides would have to stand down and the next candidate on the list from the previous election list would assume the seat as people then did vote for a Party and not an individual. At least I presume that is what would happen. Yes, that’s a different form of democracy. You don’t really have a ‘local MP’ from your area, just a party that you hope will represent your interests on a national level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Just now, bickster said: Strangely though, I suspect many of his constituents actually feel the same as him, it's the only time a Tory has won the seat since 1997 and his majority was less than 400 I suspect the same. But that’s no reason for it to be allowed, the happy accident of mass regret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 9 minutes ago, bickster said: If we had PR with a list system any MP changing sides would have to stand down and the next candidate on the list from the previous election list would assume the seat as people then did vote for a Party and not an individual. At least I presume that is what would happen. It would definitely make sense to make both of these reforms at the same time, but I'm wondering about how this works (possibly would work? Not sure if it's ever happened yet) in the PR systems in the devolved legislatures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 19, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Rodders said: I am conceding, perhaps defeatestly so, we might have to go through step change to get a better future As @markavfc40said as well, this is exactly right, IMO. Labour has to win round people who voted Tory. They will not do that by being like Corbyn Labour was. They have to move a bit towards the centre on some things to get power. Without power they're just a mutual bubble of like minded "aren't we pure, look at our halos" waste of space in terms of ever being in Government again. It's sometimes hard to swallow, but that's the way our current broken electoral system makes it. Starmer at least (as Blair did) realises it. Too many within the Labour party didn't and perhaps still don't really. Once they've got power, then they can move things a bit more back further left over time, as people come to see that as "actually, that's something I quite like". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 19, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2022 22 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: It would definitely make sense to make both of these reforms at the same time, but I'm wondering about how this works (possibly would work? Not sure if it's ever happened yet) in the PR systems in the devolved legislatures? No idea tbh just thinking out things. Thats the logical route Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 58 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: There's only one objective and that's to get the Tories out. If they're to be replaced by something you regard as "Tory-lite" surely that's preferable to "Tory-full" even if it's not ideal? This isn't my 'only' objective, and frankly it seems like a fairly impoverished objective. I have ideas and beliefs about how the country could be better, and what I would like to see. I will vote for the party that comes closest to proposing ways to make life better for me, for people like me, and for the majority of the people in the country (in that order ) and if that's Labour then that's Labour, but it often hasn't been in the past and it may not be again in the future. I'm not interested in politics because Labour are 'my team' and I'm a fan or something. If they enter an election campaign with a proposition that is materially little different or no different from the Tories, or if someone else has a better proposition, then I won't be voting for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 18 minutes ago, bickster said: No idea tbh just thinking out things. Thats the logical route I ask because I would assume that we would be most likely to adopt the same system as the PR system used if that ever happens (as path of least resistance). Maybe @chrisp65 knows if anyone in the Senedd has ever changed parties, or what would happen if they did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, blandy said: As @markavfc40said as well, this is exactly right, IMO. Labour has to win round people who voted Tory. They will not do that by being like Corbyn Labour was. They have to move a bit towards the centre on some things to get power. Without power they're just a mutual bubble of like minded "aren't we pure, look at our halos" waste of space in terms of ever being in Government again. It's sometimes hard to swallow, but that's the way our current broken electoral system makes it. Starmer at least (as Blair did) realises it. Too many within the Labour party didn't and perhaps still don't really. Once they've got power, then they can move things a bit more back further left over time, as people come to see that as "actually, that's something I quite like". Ultimately politics is about who you are voting against just as much as who you are voting for, particularly in a FPTP system. Sometimes voting for someone you don't particularly like is worthwhile to ensure someone even worse isn't in power. Edited January 19, 2022 by Panto_Villan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 LOL: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 19, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2022 There's something in the water in Bury Quote Former Radcliffe First councillor, Gareth Staples-Jones, has announced that he has joined the Labour Party. Coun Staples-Jones now plans to take his seat on the council as a member of the ruling Labour group. It comes as Bury South MP, Christian Wakeford, also announced on Wednesday he was defecting from the Conservatives to Labour. Coun Staples-Jones' move follows a brief period as an independent councillor after his decision to leave Radcliffe First late last year. He said: “I got into local politics to serve the town I love and make a positive difference in it. M.E.N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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