snowychap Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 @LondonLax Why do the “migrants” in Calais want to come to the UK? Quote ...why [do] they want to come to the UK? Back in 2002, at the height of the previous Calais hysteria, the Home Office commissioned some respected researchers to ask some of people themselves. Their answers are still the best information we have. Some of the nationalities have changed but the motivations are probably perennial. ... The Home Office previously commissioned research on this question and in 2002 the resulting report was published. Understanding the decision-making of asylum seekers was based on 65 interviews with asylum seekers in 63 households, with each interview lasting 80- 120 minutes. The principal aim of those questioned was to reach a place of safety. The mix of nationalities at Calais suggests that factor remains constant. ... This being the real world, there is no easy answer to the question “why?” Work, friends, family, language, historical links to the UK and, ironically, the UK’s reputation for fairness, tolerance and welcome all play their role. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, snowychap said: I could well see that it may be a draw - especially if one has fled an authoritarian country where issues with the State and with ID production, checking of documents and the persecution that may go hand in hand with this could have been a problem. Obviously, there are many other potential factors. I think Colin Yeo on twitter linked to a report that was done a few years ago in to the factors that drove this particular type of migration. I'll have a look for it. I had a quick look myself after posting and there was this article in the Guardian from a few years ago that talks about the trials of dealing with French bureaucracy as the reason for wanting to get from Calais to Dover. If by ‘bureaucracy’ they are talking about a requirement to register with the government than that would echo the stories from Brussels. Quote Ahmed, Ali and Mohamed also met their local MP, Bénédicte Peyrol of President Emmanuel Macron’s ruling party, to set out their frustrations with the “bureaucracy and indolence” of the current system. “Lots more people will go to Calais because they are hearing stories like ours: it takes too long to get work in France, and so people prefer to leave,” the letter said, according to a copy seen by the Guardian’s partner paper in the project, Le Monde. “It’s lots of waiting and no rights,” it added. “We don’t have the right to work, there are no French lessons, or only with volunteers. To wait without knowing if one has a future, without knowing if one will be accepted or not, is psychologically very difficult.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/09/we-want-to-work-refugees-tell-france-why-uk-is-so-attractive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Davkaus said: these guys just float on in from France I think that very much uinderplays the nature of the journey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Just now, snowychap said: I think that very much uinderplays the nature of the journey. Looks like quite an exciting trip to be honest, we should sell tickets, if people will pay to go sky diving I bet we could flog some channel crossing experiences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 19 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: To be honest with you, it's really hot and I'm not in the mood, but thank you for answering this post and we'll take it from here. It seems like an entirely reasonable shorthand to me to say 'I was stopped by police' instead of 'the car I was in was stopped by police'. I don't know what you think this gotcha proves, but it really doesn't prove anything at all. It is not important to her point in any way whether she was driving the car, or somebody else was, since the driver was black and she is arguing it is an part of a pattern of institutional racism around stopping black drivers. It's not a pleasant experience to be stopped by the police, and it is not unreasonable to expect there to be a reason for that unpleasant experience to happen. I would be On Here complaining about it if I was stopped by the police for no reason. I doubt many people would just say 'oh it's fine get over it' if I did so either, and I doubt whether you would accuse me of 'playing the victim' in that case. She has since stated a statistic that 85% of car stops of black people lead to no further action: . . . which certainly doesn't seem like a very effective thing to be doing, when it is also unpleasant and invasive. Seems like you could potentially integrate that fact a little more fully into your view of the situation to be honest. Well, firstly if 'mistakes' are not to happen again then lessons need to be learned, which does not happen with just 'moving on', and secondly you yourself just stated that the police 'admitted they made a mistake', so she isn't 'playing' the victim, she quite literally *is* the victim of that mistake. Spoken like somebody who never has to worry about being stopped or harrassed by the police for no good reason. Hello Hanoi, Thanks for the reply, 2 things to add, yes I have been 'stopped' by the police, Removed Comment It has now become apparent that all the car windows were heavily tinted so the officers could not see what colour the occupants were. Always best to believe the police in a case like this as I have alluded to in the past ALL politicians have agendas. VLD. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Graham t said: Always best to believe the police in a case like this No, it isn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted August 12, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted August 12, 2020 2 hours ago, snowychap said: No, it isn't. Why ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted August 12, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Follyfoot said: Why ? Because apparently, Liverpool fans pissed on the dead and stole their wallets. Some police lie. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted August 12, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: Because apparently, Liverpool fans pissed on the dead and stole their wallets. Some police lie. Of course they do, but I honestly believe in the majority of occasions they are doing the best they possibly can and the constable savages amongst them are the smallest minority, Every industry has some bad apples and I’m sure the police are no different, knowing somebody that was nearly stitched up by the West Midlands serious crime squad I kind of know this to be true. However you have to believe the majority want a better world for us all to live in and this is the reason why they joined up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: 16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Some police lie. Of course they do Thank you for answering your own question. Edited August 12, 2020 by snowychap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Follyfoot said: Of course they do, but I honestly believe in the majority of occasions they are doing the best they possibly can and the constable savages amongst them are the smallest minority, Every industry has some bad apples and I’m sure the police are no different, knowing somebody that was nearly stitched up by the West Midlands serious crime squad I kind of know this to be true. However you have to believe the majority want a better world for us all to live in and this is the reason why they joined up It’s this same false argument. I haven’t seen anyone suggest anything other than the majority of police do the best they can. But it’s nowhere near perfect, so an acceptance they will always be right is misplaced. Proven, time and time again by the number of people wrongly convicted etc.. It’s why the statue of justice is shown blindfold, we should not simply take anyone’s word for anything. That has to include public servants with a track record that is not 100% perfect. Yes, every industry has bad apples, but the bad apple at B&Q is far less likely to cost me everything I have. We need healthy scepticism. The more we hold the police up to scrutiny the better they will be and the less mistakes and rogues there will be. just like we have nothing to fear if we’ve done nothing wrong, the same applies when holding the police to account. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 20 hours ago, Demitri_C said: It doesnt matter. I can still see how other members who are not white dont have problems with it either. Not all black people have issues with it. So on your basis your white you know as much as me so your opinion is as irrevelant as mine! A person with experience is never at the mercy of a person with an opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 9 hours ago, Follyfoot said: Of course they do, but I honestly believe in the majority of occasions they are doing the best they possibly can and the constable savages amongst them are the smallest minority, Every industry has some bad apples and I’m sure the police are no different, knowing somebody that was nearly stitched up by the West Midlands serious crime squad I kind of know this to be true. However you have to believe the majority want a better world for us all to live in and this is the reason why they joined up My friend's a policeman and he told me it's more fifty fifty. He went into more detail and said there are two types of policeman, those who want to help people and those who want to control people. I always find it odd when people are so willing to make big statements on things they barely have an inkling of. That's not really aimed at you Follyfoot. I'm just reporting what he said by the way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Graham t said: as I have alluded to in the past ALL politicians have agendas. VLD. The patronising tone gets me so deeply in the stomach, I can't even tell you. This is a classic excuse used by people who don't really know much about anything to stop themselves thinking too much. If this is as deeply as your thinking goes, what's the point of debating with people? You can dismiss literally anything with statements like that, and I bet you do. Edited August 13, 2020 by Rolta 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Rolta said: The patronising tone gets me so deeply in the stomach, I can't even tell you. This is a classic excuse used by people who don't really know much about anything to stop themselves thinking too much. If this is as deeply as your thinking goes, what's the point of debating with people? You can dismiss literally anything with statements like that, and I bet you do. Get the feeling, some posters on here have “agendas” too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 What does 'agendas' even mean in this context? If it means 'political opinions', then sure - they aren't hiding them! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 13, 2020 Moderator Share Posted August 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: What does 'agendas' even mean in this context? If it means 'political opinions', then sure - they aren't hiding them! Its almost impossible for any collective group of people not to have an agenda, unless of course they are dead Hidden agendas is a different thing altogether Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 13, 2020 Moderator Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: What does 'agendas' even mean in this context? If it means 'political opinions', then sure - they aren't hiding them! Speaking generally, and thinking of blind testing - running party policy past people without telling them which party’s policy it is draws out political opinion. Telling people “the Labour policy is this...” and then asking what their view is can often draw out an agenda, often unconscious. where people are aligned and align themselves with parties, it’s highly visible where there are agendas. Not always, and I’m speaking generally, not aiming at any VT posters 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 16, 2020 Moderator Share Posted August 16, 2020 Yes Yes, we should always listen to Police Officer's opinions, especially the leaders of their representative organisations, we were implored... Quote Dawn Butler police stop 'rooted in bias', says UK chief of black police officers The police stop of the Labour MP Dawn Butler was rooted in systemic racism that is damaging the legitimacy of policing, the leader of black police officers has said. Inspector Andrew George, the new interim president of the National Black Police Association, also called for urgent reform of “a biased system that views black people as criminals or drug dealers”. George questioned the grounds for the stop last Sunday in east London, after police said said they had wrongly noted the car’s registration plate and believed it to be registered to northern England. He said: “I would ask why a vehicle being registered in Yorkshire and driving in a global hub like London is enough, by itself, to warrant checking the owner details.” Plenty more on link The Guardian They know best after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 “. National Black Police Associationl” I’ve always felt uncomfortable with groups which require you to be a certain colour to be a member. True integration, in a world without such requirements, is surely the aim.Just makes me uncomfortable, it accentuates differences rather than removes them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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