blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 It's difficult to debate with someone who seems to make up things to support their viewpoint. I have tried to respond to your comments, but how can I answer a sequence of things that don't bear any relationship to the facts? In all of the investigations and inquiries, there has never been any suggestion that I've seen that there was a lack of police numbers as a contributing factor. So when someone posts that " there not being enough police presence from the onset is a bigger mistake than the gate being opened...and ....A bigger police presence and the crush outside doesn't happen. So the gate doesn't need to be opened" I struggle to know how to respond to the content without resorting to sarcasm - "Blimey O'Reilly, You've only gone and done it!. All these expensive judges, investigations, review of video, tens of thousands of documents and 2 years of careful, painstaking inquiry. If only they'd asked Woody they would see that their conclusions are wrong and his unsupported uncorroborated opinion about numbers of coppers at the Leppings lane end of the ground being insufficient has nailed it. Case closed." But I wouldn't do that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 1 minute ago, blandy said: there has never been any suggestion that I've seen that there was a lack of police numbers as a contributing factor. Clearly not as well read on the matter as you thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisVillan Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 24 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: This is genuinely fascinating. False. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Woodytom said: Clearly not as well read on the matter as you thought. Educate me. With a link or with some other reference or whatever. And answer this, too. Would the police have expected the fans with tickets to turn up? And if so who could possibly be these unexpected Liverpool fans other than those without tickets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Here we have a classic Roland 808, being a drum machine, you only have to punch the data in once. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, blandy said: Educate me. With a link or with some other reference or whatever. There's plenty if you look in the right places know/speak to the right people. But il point you in the direction of some as I don't know how to add links. Panorama 2013 documentary of it. It's available on YouTube. Within the first five minutes fans and police have voiced their concerns about the lack of police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, blandy said: And answer this, too. Would the police have expected the fans with tickets to turn up? And if so who could possibly be these unexpected Liverpool fans other than those without tickets. Eh? Not sure the point of this question. I've already said that the unexpected ones are the ones without tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Educate me. With a link or with some other reference or whatever. And answer this, too. Would the police have expected the fans with tickets to turn up? And if so who could possibly be these unexpected Liverpool fans other than those without tickets. You're biting, and I suspect that's all this is. Even ignoring the actual making up of facts and contradictory statements, I struggle to see what Woodytom's point is in the first place. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I wish there was a reverse of the classic 'Homer backing into a bush' gif. I want to leave but yet I can't seem to stop pressing refresh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 Just now, Woodytom said: Panorama 2013 documentary of it. It's available on YouTube. Within the first five minutes fans and police have voiced their concerns about the lack of police. Thanks. I have read that there were something like 20% fewer police at that end of the ground, compared to previous years semi finals. I hadn't appreciated or seen anywhere that that the smaller number of police was "a bigger mistake than the gate being opened...and ....A bigger police presence and the crush outside doesn't happen " If panorama says it does, I'll have a look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 18 minutes ago, blandy said: In all of the investigations and inquiries, there has never been any suggestion that I've seen that there was a lack of police numbers as a contributing factor. So now you're changing the goalposts.... 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Thanks. I have read that there were something like 20% fewer police at that end of the ground, compared to previous years semi finals. I hadn't appreciated or seen anywhere that that the smaller number of police was "a bigger mistake than the gate being opened...and ....A bigger police presence and the crush outside doesn't happen " If panorama says it does, I'll have a look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 15 minutes ago, ChrisVillan said: False. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Panorama isn't going to say those words that you now want but it's certainly not inconceivable to think that a bigger police presence would have been able to funnel the fans properly. Il wait in anticipation to see if you acknowledge your complete contradiction of seeing nothing to reading that there was 20% less police officers than precious semi-finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 28, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted April 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, bobzy said: Even ignoring the actual making up of facts and contradictory statements, I struggle to see what Woodytom's point is in the first place. This. Woody seems to be making points, and then slowly backtracking on all of them as they're proved wrong until he's tied himself in knots and we arrive at an un-debateable standoff. Then the process repeats. I'm enjoying it though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Just now, Stevo985 said: This. Woody seems to be making points, and then slowly backtracking on all of them as they're proved wrong. Well.... not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 28, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted April 28, 2016 If you say so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Just now, Stevo985 said: If you say so Well we will see if others acknowledge their contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 28, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted April 28, 2016 Just now, Woodytom said: Well we will see if others acknowledge their contradictions. At least then someone will have 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2016 26 minutes ago, Woodytom said: So now you're changing the goalposts.... Sorry, my poor wording . To be clear and leave the goalposts in exactly the same place - the only thing I recall reading or hearing about Police numbers at the Leppings lane end was that there were fewer than for a previous semi final, by about a fifth and that a policeman had given evidence saying that it had no impact at all on the disaster or the pressure outside the ground. I don't recall all the details or where it was - Taylor report or somewhere on the HSG website I guess. I haven't seen it mentioned as a conclusion or contributory factor in any of the report conclusion, either as a factor or as the thing you say i.e. more of a deal than opening the gate. But I'll google for the panorama you mention and watch it later when I get time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 27 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: At least then someone will have I have 2/3 times in this thread. I always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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