The 2015 General Election

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I tend to vote on social & environmental issues rather than economic, because 1) I've no idea about economics but 2) in any case I don't see our period of 'late capitalism' ending through any change in government - the power resides in the ether for all I know. Therefore I'm a 'lefty' because parties on the right are socially conservative and dismissive of painstakingly clear science (although the latter has more to do with who funds who than a general stupidity).

Edited April 30, 2015 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[snowychap]

you do know how much a London underground driver gets paid don't you  ...  it's clear that their Union are giving them an unfair advantage , the top earners are rumoured to be getting paid in excess of £50,000 ( torygraph even states £65k) ... I'm not belittling tube drivers , but is that really a job that deserves to be paid double what a band 5 nurse earns   ( Nurses being the currency that everything gets measured by since 2010 )

Firstly, I don't believe Chris is either a tube driver or a nurse (I think he draws things and drives up and down motorways a lot ) so it's rather an odd thing to say in relation to what he said.

Secondly, why compare top earning tube drivers' pay with a specific band of nurses rather than say the top band of/top earning nurses (if nurses are the currency rather than specifically a center(ish) point)?

Thirdly, in order for their union to be giving them an 'unfair' advantage - they'd have to be earning more than/keeping out non-unionized tube drivers. Perhaps that's the case - I don't know.

[smetrov]

 

 

 

No, I think I can see where Brommy is coming from.

When I was starting out in life there were any number of occasions where it became clear you needed to be in a particular set or club to get nice things.

I've had a job where it was made clear that to progress I had to join the golf club and play by the clubhouse rules. I tried it, it was so up itself and so obviously just a conservative meeting place that I dropped it quite quickly.

Another time, I needed a written quote for building work to qualify for a grant that was only available for a very brief window. Couldn't persuade a builder to give a quote. A friend who it later transpired was in the masons got me that quote. The masons was very much a tory thing around here.

I could go on (don't worry I won't), but I found this time and time again, you had to be 'in' to get a share of the nice things. It was unfair.

is that any different to the industry where the Unions had things sown up and outsiders couldn't get in ?

 

 

I guess its very similar, in the past. Does that still happen? Or have we had a one way correcting of something that was unfair on both sides?

 

It's also not something I experienced. When I've been a member of a union, it's stopped people being sacked without good reason to give jobs to those that would do them cheaper. So my personal experience of union membership was wholly good. But I accept that wasn't universal.

 

I am not currently in a union and don't currently feel those that are have any unfair advantage over me. The golf club and the old school tie still have an advantage over me. 

 

you do know how much a London underground driver gets paid don't you  ...  it's clear that their Union are giving them an unfair advantage , the top earners are rumoured to be getting paid in excess of £50,000 ( torygraph even states £65k) ... I'm not belittling tube drivers , but is that really a job that deserves to be paid double what a band 5 nurse earns   ( Nurses being the currency that everything gets measured by since 2010 )

 

 

I spent years contracting at a couple of investment banks , when I started it was very much old school and institutionalised ..by the time I left most of the people were even more common and uneducated  than me

 

 

I can't beleive a tube driver is on £50k*

 

is this from the same source that say people who stack shelves at ASDA get £20ph - or that a plumber gets £70k.....

 

Excepting those redoployed on protected salary.

[Demitri_C]

The Sun Scotland and the Sun England .... lets see who can spot the difference  ....

 

Goes to show what garbage that rag is

[chrisp65]

A tube driver very likely does earn a fat salary for his job underground doing unsociable hours ferrying around thousands of commuters. I have no problem with that.

 

What we have to be careful of, is wanting them to earn less, so as to be more in line with our own personal ranking of important jobs. This is a trap.

 

If you feel a nurse should earn more than a tube driver or that a bus driver should be comparable to a tube driver, well don't begrudge the tube guy. Increase the money of the others and get them all earning decent money for their work.

 

But be very careful in letting right wing media influence your ranking of what job is more deserving. Because those desk jockey banking scrotes that broke the system with their fraudulent behaviour earn far far more and then got bailed out when they got us all in to trouble. Once bailed out with your money, they now think they might consider moving abroad where there are less onerous rules to try and stop them repeating their fraud. HSBC first, but you watch the other rats leave if they can, once we've paid their debt off.

 

The Daily Mail and the tories would love you to be angry about the salary of an RMT union member. But can you imagine their views on trying to limit the pay of the bosses? Or on taxing people more that have more?

[Jon]

How the newspapers must absolutely hate social media. It'll be the death of them.

[Jon]

A tube driver very likely does earn a fat salary for his job underground doing unsociable hours ferrying around thousands of commuters. I have no problem with that.

 

What we have to be careful of, is wanting them to earn less, so as to be more in line with our own personal ranking of important jobs. This is a trap.

 

If you feel a nurse should earn more than a tube driver or that a bus driver should be comparable to a tube driver, well don't begrudge the tube guy. Increase the money of the others and get them all earning decent money for their work.

 

But be very careful in letting right wing media influence your ranking of what job is more deserving. Because those desk jockey banking scrotes that broke the system with their fraudulent behaviour earn far far more and then got bailed out when they got us all in to trouble. Once bailed out with your money, they now think they might consider moving abroad where there are less onerous rules to try and stop them repeating their fraud. HSBC first, but you watch the other rats leave if they can, once we've paid their debt off.

 

The Daily Mail and the tories would love you to be angry about the salary of an RMT union member. But can you imagine their views on trying to limit the pay of the bosses? Or on taxing people more that have more?

spot on that, Mr Crisp.

[smetrov]

A tube driver very likely does earn a fat salary for his job underground doing unsociable hours ferrying around thousands of commuters. I have no problem with that.

 

What we have to be careful of, is wanting them to earn less, so as to be more in line with our own personal ranking of important jobs. This is a trap.

 

If you feel a nurse should earn more than a tube driver or that a bus driver should be comparable to a tube driver, well don't begrudge the tube guy. Increase the money of the others and get them all earning decent money for their work.

 

But be very careful in letting right wing media influence your ranking of what job is more deserving. Because those desk jockey banking scrotes that broke the system with their fraudulent behaviour earn far far more and then got bailed out when they got us all in to trouble. Once bailed out with your money, they now think they might consider moving abroad where there are less onerous rules to try and stop them repeating their fraud. HSBC first, but you watch the other rats leave if they can, once we've paid their debt off.

 

The Daily Mail and the tories would love you to be angry about the salary of an RMT union member. But can you imagine their views on trying to limit the pay of the bosses? Or on taxing people more that have more?

 

Yes - a much hidden part of the Hutton report into pensions - said that whilst public sector pensions are better - it shouldn't become a race to the bottom  (ie make private pensions better - not public sector pensions worse)

 

Unfortunatley it fell on deaf on ears - I now pay an extra £50 per month - and don't get my pension until 6 years later  (quite why I have to pay more - when the scheme is almost £2bn in profit is beyond my understanding)  - Sadly as a consequence a lot of people especially the younger ones are now pulling out of the pension scheme - meaning they will be reliant on that state come pensionable age !!!!!

[tonyh29]

A tube driver very likely does earn a fat salary for his job underground doing unsociable hours ferrying around thousands of commuters. I have no problem with that.

 

What we have to be careful of, is wanting them to earn less, so as to be more in line with our own personal ranking of important jobs. This is a trap.

 

If you feel a nurse should earn more than a tube driver or that a bus driver should be comparable to a tube driver, well don't begrudge the tube guy. Increase the money of the others and get them all earning decent money for their work.

 

But be very careful in letting right wing media influence your ranking of what job is more deserving. Because those desk jockey banking scrotes that broke the system with their fraudulent behaviour earn far far more and then got bailed out when they got us all in to trouble. Once bailed out with your money, they now think they might consider moving abroad where there are less onerous rules to try and stop them repeating their fraud. HSBC first, but you watch the other rats leave if they can, once we've paid their debt off.

 

The Daily Mail and the tories would love you to be angry about the salary of an RMT union member. But can you imagine their views on trying to limit the pay of the bosses? Or on taxing people more that have more?

I love it how anyone that doesn't subscribe to left wing views has to be brainwashed by the right wing media and cant form their own opinion   ... makes it all worthwhile being told I'm incapable of forming an opinion of my own   ... at least that's what Mr Murdoch told me I should write !!

 

I don't begrudge the tube driver his money , I'd have just expected that a skilled job that requires years of training should be more highly paid than unskilled \ semi skilled labour ... maybe it's because nurses like teachers only work for the love of the job rather than money as they keep telling us  after all !!

 

It's strange that you should  compare an RMT member to the pay of a boss of a corporation , wouldn't it be fairer to compare the salary (and perks) of a Union leader ?

[tonyh29]

 

you do know how much a London underground driver gets paid don't you  ...  it's clear that their Union are giving them an unfair advantage , the top earners are rumoured to be getting paid in excess of £50,000 ( torygraph even states £65k) ... I'm not belittling tube drivers , but is that really a job that deserves to be paid double what a band 5 nurse earns   ( Nurses being the currency that everything gets measured by since 2010 )

Firstly, I don't believe Chris is either a tube driver or a nurse (I think he draws things and drives up and down motorways a lot ) so it's rather an odd thing to say in relation to what he said.

Secondly, why compare top earning tube drivers' pay with a specific band of nurses rather than say the top band of/top earning nurses (if nurses are the currency rather than specifically a center(ish) point)?

Thirdly, in order for their union to be giving them an 'unfair' advantage - they'd have to be earning more than/keeping out non-unionized tube drivers. Perhaps that's the case - I don't know.

 

I figured as he doesn't play golf and hang out with old Etonians either that he was speaking generically

[blandy]

No, I think I can see where Brommy is coming from.

When I was starting out in life there were any number of occasions where it became clear you needed to be in a particular set or club to get nice things. ....It was unfair.

is that any different to the industry where the Unions had things sown up and outsiders couldn't get in ?

Not really. Thing is the Gov't banned closed shop union practices 30+ years ago, though they didn't ban the similar Masonic/Golf Club equivalent. Curious that.

[blandy]

I love it how anyone that doesn't subscribe to left wing views has to be brainwashed by the right wing media and cant form their own opinion...   

I don't begrudge the tube driver his money , I'd have just expected that a skilled job that requires years of training should be more highly paid than unskilled \ semi skilled labour ...  

It's strange that you should  compare an RMT member to the pay of a boss of a corporation , wouldn't it be fairer to compare the salary (and perks) of a Union leader ?

I think it's wrong to say right wingers can't think for themselves. They think of almost nothing but themselves

No seriously I do think it's daft.

On the union boss / Boss of a corporation comparison - My Union (Unite) boss, Len McCluskey got 140 grand last year. A handy sum for sure and a 3.7% rise on the year before. 

My company boss got more than 10 times that amount just as his bonus. I think the poor sod had to get by on a few million in total.[edit] he got £2,410,000[/edit] An increase of around 46% I think he got.

I'm sure they both deserve every penny - aren't you?

[tonyh29]

 

I love it how anyone that doesn't subscribe to left wing views has to be brainwashed by the right wing media and cant form their own opinion...   

I don't begrudge the tube driver his money , I'd have just expected that a skilled job that requires years of training should be more highly paid than unskilled \ semi skilled labour ...  

It's strange that you should  compare an RMT member to the pay of a boss of a corporation , wouldn't it be fairer to compare the salary (and perks) of a Union leader ?

I think it's wrong to say right wingers can't think for themselves. They think of almost nothing but themselves

No seriously I do think it's daft.

On the union boss /Boss of a corporation comparison - My Union (Unite) boss, Len McCluskey got 140 grand last year. A handy sum for sure and a 3.7% rise on the year before. 

My company boss got more than 10 times that amount just as his bonus. I think the poor sod had to get by on a few million in total. An increase of around 46% I think he got.

I'm sure they both deserve every penny - aren't you?

 

I knew I shouldn't  have stated "corporation"  d'oh

 

PS

are you including McCluskey 's subsidised loan , his subsidised home and the £75,000k job given to the mother of his child as part of his £140k package ?

[blandy]

On the union boss /Boss of a corporation comparison - My Union (Unite) boss, Len McCluskey got 140 grand last year. A handy sum for sure and a 3.7% rise on the year before. 

My company boss got more than 10 times that amount just as his bonus. I think the poor sod had to get by on a few million in total. An increase of around 46% I think he got.

I'm sure they both deserve every penny - aren't you?

I knew I shouldn't  have stated "corporation"  d'oh

 

PS

are you including McCluskey 's subsidised loan , his subsidised home and the £75,000k job given to the mother of his child as part of his £140k package ?

Yes, the 140K included his perks. As for his relationship(s) with other people who work for the Union or whatever - no, that's not his salary.

I don't like him, to tell the truth.

I only used him because you asked (me) to compare - so I picked my company boss and my union boss. There's no comparison - my company boss gets 20 times more than the boss of the biggest union.

Frankly both of them are overpaid, but one much more than the other.

If, heaven forbid, either of them or both of them were to be hit by a bus tomorrow, it'd make not the slightest difference in the ability of either the Union or the company to carry on doing what they do.

[Risso]

A tube driver very likely does earn a fat salary for his job underground doing unsociable hours ferrying around thousands of commuters. I have no problem with that.

 

What we have to be careful of, is wanting them to earn less, so as to be more in line with our own personal ranking of important jobs. This is a trap.

 

If you feel a nurse should earn more than a tube driver or that a bus driver should be comparable to a tube driver, well don't begrudge the tube guy. Increase the money of the others and get them all earning decent money for their work.

 

But be very careful in letting right wing media influence your ranking of what job is more deserving. Because those desk jockey banking scrotes that broke the system with their fraudulent behaviour earn far far more and then got bailed out when they got us all in to trouble. Once bailed out with your money, they now think they might consider moving abroad where there are less onerous rules to try and stop them repeating their fraud. HSBC first, but you watch the other rats leave if they can, once we've paid their debt off.

 

The Daily Mail and the tories would love you to be angry about the salary of an RMT union member. But can you imagine their views on trying to limit the pay of the bosses? Or on taxing people more that have more?

 

 

Hang on, we've had 5 years plus of everything being described in terms of how many nurses or hospitals something (mainly considered 'bad') would pay for.  Trident?  That would pay for a gazillion nurses.  MPs' payrises. A quadrillion hospitals.  The left don't like it when it's pointed out that unions are having an unhealthy influence on certain professions' salaries, and I speak as the son of a former tube driver.

[chrisp65]

sorry, I'm not sure I follow the point?

[blandy]

The left don't like it when it's pointed out that unions are having an unhealthy influence on certain professions' salaries, and I speak as the son of a former tube driver.

 

That's an interesting take on it, Mart. In what way in the tube driver example, is the union influence "unhealthy" in getting the tube drivers the pay they have , or in protecting their pensions?

 

Surely £50 K odd for someone living and working in that fancy London isn't exactly excessive, or unhealthy?  - not the the way I look at it, at least. I'd say that the way their Union (i.e. them) act together to try and make sure they are fairly rewarded for their labour is a healthy thing.

I wouldn't fancy the job, sat down in a tunnel all day, maybe people topping themselves by jumping in front of the train,, not seeing daylight for a large part of their working day.

 

Sure they do well compared to say nurses, or some teachers, but that's more down to those professions being less collectively motivated to stand up for themselves perhaps? and due to their paymasters determination to keep their pay down.

 

I just don't see Unions as unhealthy. They can be from time to time, but then again so can toxic management or incompetent management. In general unions are a huge force for good.

 

The best non-management jobs are mostly all where Union representation is strong.

[tonyh29]

The left don't like it when it's pointed out that unions are having an unhealthy influence on certain professions' salaries, and I speak as the son of a former tube driver.

That's an interesting take on it, Mart. In what way in the tube driver example, is the union influence "unhealthy" in getting the tube drivers the pay they have , or in protecting their pensions?

Surely £50 K odd for someone living and working in that fancy London isn't exactly excessive, or unhealthy? - not the the way I look at it, at least. I'd say that the way their Union (i.e. them) act together to try and make sure they are fairly rewarded for their labour is a healthy thing.

I wouldn't fancy the job, sat down in a tunnel all day, maybe people topping themselves by jumping in front of the train,, not seeing daylight for a large part of their working day.

Sure they do well compared to say nurses, or some teachers, but that's more down to those professions being less collectively motivated to stand up for themselves perhaps? and due to their paymasters determination to keep their pay down.

I just don't see Unions as unhealthy. They can be from time to time, but then again so can toxic management or incompetent management. In general unions are a huge force for good.

The best non-management jobs are mostly all where Union representation is strong.

Good for the workers with unions that can hold a city hostage , not so good for thegeneral public who have to pay ridiculously high prices to travel on the underground Edited April 30, 2015 by tonyh29

[bickster]

Train drivers earning £50k a year. Thats about industry standard I'd have thought. How much do airline pilots earn? They are responsible for far less lives in a day than train drivers in a safer means of transport too. Comparing train drivers to nurses is frankly silly.

[tonyh29]

Train drivers earning £50k a year. Thats about industry standard I'd have thought. How much do airline pilots earn? They are responsible for far less lives in a day than train drivers in a safer means of transport too. Comparing train drivers to nurses is frankly silly.

are you an ostrich , everything is compared to nurses .....