Dr_Pangloss Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Apparently US news channels were covering the attack live, and were revealing the locations of people hiding from the gunman...I'd treat that as being an accomplice to murder, TBH. Putting TV ratings above people's lives. Yep, absolutely disgusting, **** disgusting, all those involved should be sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 The Lt Governor of Texas tweeted a "Reap what you sow" passage from the bible in the moments after the tragedy. Wow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) Donald Trump has probably just gained a few more supporters. Edited June 12, 2016 by av1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 1 hour ago, av1 said: Donald Trump has probably just gained a few more supporters. Think this has been a massive, massive boost to Trump to be honest. The media are very fond of calling news stories 'game changers', when they almost always aren't. This one really does have the potential to change the election. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 With the exception of the idiot from Texas referenced above, there's been a comfortingly normal reaction to this so far even from those on the right who can be stereo-typed against this. Shocking comments from the shooters dad... though, he's probably not thinking all too clearly right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 30 minutes ago, villakram said: Shocking comments from the shooters dad... though, he's probably not thinking all too clearly right now! Shocking? Predictable more like. Looking for any explanation rather than the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 there are 3 ways to go with this, the opinion that america needs to do something about their gun laws, the opinion that america needs to do something about its homophobia or the opinion that america needs to do something about muslim attacks on their soil from what ive seen our media at least seems to be reporting on the first one, i expect the american media is reporting the 3rd, id expect very little to be being said about the 2nd one, its not a islam thing in the states, its a largely christian thing too, if they want to start putting things about reaping what you sow, look at the last 6 months in america, look at how they are openly being homophobic in the south with the laws they've introduced 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom_Wren Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 7 hours ago, Davkaus said: Apparently US news channels were covering the attack live, and were revealing the locations of people hiding from the gunman...I'd treat that as being an accomplice to murder, TBH. Putting TV ratings above people's lives. Do you have a link or anything? Ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 9 hours ago, Davkaus said: Not one of those 53 people was armed? Clearly Americans shouldn't just be allowed to carry killing machines with them, they should be mandatory. Original critique there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 I mean, if they weren't allowed to carry killing machines there likely wouldn't have been anything to defend themselves from in the first place so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 13, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2016 14 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: Think this has been a massive, massive boost to Trump to be honest. The media are very fond of calling news stories 'game changers', when they almost always aren't. This one really does have the potential to change the election. I agree. but kind of strange seeing as, as I understand it, Trump is pro guns and probably wouldn't be as pro gay as his opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 13, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2016 Trump is spinning the Islamic terrorism line and despicably using these murders to push himself and pat himself on the back. The Islamic terror line on this the more that comes out seems weak, his only connection so far a 911 call immediately beforehand swearing allegiance to IS, and IS media claiming it. At best he's tried to buy into the IS brand I suspect, and his choice of target suggests he was taking out LGBT people first and foremost. But its in Trump's interest to peddle the Islam line because it's the gift that keeps giving for him, even if the cost is using the deaths of 50 people the same way the terrorists do. Although Trump reduces the impact further by refusing the acknowledge that these were a very particular sort of person, because most of his audience probably thinks those people are currently burning in hell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: I agree. but kind of strange seeing as, as I understand it, Trump is pro guns and probably wouldn't be as pro gay as his opponent. I suspect the anti Muslim stance will trump the other 2 when it comes down to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 13, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Chindie said: The Islamic terror line on this the more that comes out seems weak Hmmm. Not that weak. The bloke was Islamic, claimed the terror killings were an act of Islamic terror for IS. That's kind of quite a strong link to "Islamic Terror" for me. Sometimes things are what they are, and pretending they're not what they are is the wrong path to take. Now the bloke may have been delusional, psychopathic, homophobic and all the other things and not part of an "organised" gang and it is clearly also an act of homophobic mass murder, but still mass murder by a muslim in the name of Islamic terror is "Islamic terror". 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 13, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, blandy said: Hmmm. Not that weak. The bloke was Islamic, claimed the terror killings were an act of Islamic terror for IS. That's kind of quite a strong link to "Islamic Terror" for me. Sometimes things are what they are, and pretending they're not what they are is the wrong path to take. Now the bloke may have been delusional, psychopathic, homophobic and all the other things and not part of an "organised" gang and it is clearly also an act of homophobic mass murder, but still mass murder by a muslim in the name of Islamic terror is "Islamic terror". I'm not pretending things aren't what they are. At all. If this bloke is discovered to have actually prepared a position on Islam, by which I mean significantly researched IS or whatever other bunch of death cult nutters using the Quran to justify things, and therefore having a considered position and aim, I'll happily call a spade a spade. I'm the last person on this forum defending Islam or any Islamic flavoured terror. I'll happily denounce the word removed as another Muslim terrorist. It takes more than a phone call saying you're doing something for whatever reason to have it have real significance. What if he rang up and said he was doing this for some other cause, and on investigation it seemed he has no real tie to that cause? If this was a white guy from a Christian background but it turned out he didn't really care about the Bible all, but at the last moment he rings up the authorities to say 'I'm going to slaughter homosexuals because Jesus says kill gays' does that really make it Christian terrorism? I'd argue no, because the act requires understanding, conviction and a political goal in doing so. At the moment, this is a mass murder and an act of terror... but not yet significantly an Islamic one, whether he made a half hearted attempt to label it so or not. It may well become that, even likely to do so, but I'll call it a spade when I can tell it's a spade. Right now this act of terror is based on homophobia, certainly. Islam, likely but not yet. I'm sure you disagree. Let's leave it there. Positions are clear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 13, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 13, 2016 38 minutes ago, Chindie said: I'm sure you disagree. Let's leave it there. Positions are clear. I understand your thinking and your explanation. I disagree with parts of it, but as you say, people can reach different conclusions. But As this is a discussion board, I'm not going to accept your invitation to "leave it there" if it's all the same. You don't need to read or respond, and that's fine. Rather than argue, which isn't the point, I'd like to at least discuss something. 40 minutes ago, Chindie said: It takes more than a phone call saying you're doing something for whatever reason to have it have real significance. What if he rang up and said he was doing this for some other cause, and on investigation it seemed he has no real tie to that cause? If this was a white guy from a Christian background but it turned out he didn't really care about the Bible all, but at the last moment he rings up the authorities to say 'I'm going to slaughter homosexuals because Jesus says kill gays' does that really make it Christian terrorism? I'd argue no, because the act requires understanding, conviction and a political goal in doing so. You're right it does take more than a phone call...for it to have any significance. This might sound clumsy or glib, but if he'd phoned up and said "IS is going to kill ...people" and not followed it through, then that would (for me) tally with your point totally. Problem is, that by actually going as far as the horrific massacre, it kind of adds a whole level of credence to his announcement. This was not someone idly linking one thing to another, it was obviously a horribly serious act. If anyone is going to go to that level of horror, then there's no need or reason to claim it for a cause they don't "believe" - they're already demonstrating whatever (homophobia) so that makes his call real and valid evidence to me. I'm not claiming it's the same thing as "organised" Islamic terror - the thing politicians and media bang on about. But to me, by definition a muslim going out doing mass murder and terror in his proclaimed "Islamic State" act is exactly and incontrovertably Islamic terror. It was in the name of Islam and it is terror. None of that means I think muslims are all....etc. It doesn't and I don't. Muslims across the world suffer more from "Islamic terrorism" than anyone else, probably. I just have a feeling that when loads of people all over the US, UK, Europe etc. who are muslims and do vile, appalling things in the name of Islam or IS or Allah, then (generally, not specific to you or me) sort of turning a blind eye, or a "politically sensitive" approach to what is going on is madness. I'm all for trying to understand why this problem has manifested itself over the past 25-30 years or so and to try and put the genie back in the bottle (Palestine, Israel Bush, Blair, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria and all the rest). I just feel that "we" (the world) can't understand it or try and fix it if we kind of don't accept it for what it is or say there's only a "weak link". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 The attack in Orlando was homophobic and it disgusts me to see news coverage try and ignore the identities of those killed by claiming it as some generic attack on humanity. No, it was an attack on a specific community. Be respectful and treat it as such. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 13, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) @blandyI disagree, pretty much to the word. I wrote out a long rebuttal but as said, I don't want the discussion. Again I would disagree, almost to the word. Edited June 13, 2016 by Chindie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 13, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 13, 2016 16 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said: The attack in Orlando was homophobic and it disgusts me to see news coverage try and ignore the identities of those killed by claiming it as some generic attack on humanity. No, it was an attack on a specific community. Be respectful and treat it as such. This. The media has chased the established discourse, which isn't clear yet (and may not ever be) and largely overshadowed the fact that this is a terror attack on LGBT people. This is homophobic terror. Have some respect for the victims and treat it as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Dead is dead, gay or straight really isn't the issue. Yes LGBT folks hold a special place at the top of Islamic militants people to hate list, but they still want to kill everyone else on the list too. Saw Owen Jones on Sky News (before he stormed off) claiming the other talking heads didn't understand because they aren't gay. Get a grip, the sexual orientation of murdered innocents should be neither here nor there, or make the crime any more or less shocking. It's not about ownership of the dead by a particular 'community', it's about some vicious murdering pig getting his rocks off in the name of Allah. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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