limpid Posted December 10, 2015 Administrator Share Posted December 10, 2015 1 minute ago, MakemineVanilla said: I see rationality as a faculty which people engage on occasion but I don't see it as a normal state of mind. The people who seem the most rational are high-functioning autistic/Aspergers people but so-called 'normal' people seem to be pretty irrational most of the time. There's no need to reference extremes. We don't all need to be "most rational". We need to be more rational. We need to make more choices based on reason and fewer based on feelings. We need to be better at recognising logical fallacies and avoiding them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 For the sake of the club, though, let's hope an outbreak of rationality doesn't occur - at least whilst we're not very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 4 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said: It seems very unlikely that the disappearance of religion would mean that peace, love and understanding, would suddenly break out. We would be forced to to invent other reasons to justify why others should be oppressed or murdered so our greed cult can go on unabated. Obviously it wouldn't, nobody would argue otherwise. But the removal of religion would remove the belief so many seem to have that being a horrible word removed is what (insert appropriate sky fairy here) would want, no commands them to do. It would remove what they and their supporters see as being divine justification for their actions and/or beliefs. There will always be bad people but without religion it would be that bit harder to bring people to a cause, to justify the most appalling actions and deeds and to do it with clear conscious which some clearly do. Sure people would invent other reasons, nationalism or supposed nationalism being the most likely but its none have the same pull as religion, or at least non that I'm aware of and even fewer offer a seat in a sky palace, more virgins than you can shake a stick your stick at and eternal life... bla... bla...bla I think Steven Weinberg said it best “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 What about religion's sister; nationality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 What about it? I briefly mentioned it, not sure if you missed it or there was an additional point? Nationalism is a significant motivator of people no question, just look at Ukraine although a there was a lot more at stake their than just nationalism much of it was to do with economic conditions of East v West. But i'm still not sure its even remotely in the same ball park as religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 18 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: What about it? I briefly mentioned it, not sure if you missed it or there was an additional point? Nationalism is a significant motivator of people no question, just look at Ukraine although a there was a lot more at stake their than just nationalism much of it was to do with economic conditions of East v West. But i'm still not sure its even remotely in the same ball park as religion. Sorry, I did miss it. I think you're underestimating it anyway. I'd possibly put it above religion as one of those things that divide people along lines that don't really exist. Ukrainian nationalism was exploited after we overthrew a government that was reluctant to join NATO, which I guess parallels ISIS's desire to use religion to stoke the fires it wants to burn in the middle east (and further) - we talk a lot about religion as a divisive and unhelpful force in terms of its effect on the world (and it is) but you very rarely hear the same type of debate about nationhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 38 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: we overthrew a government that was reluctant to join NATO No "we" didn't. That's a massive skewing of the situation. That government originally came to power through intimidation, corruption and fraud, protest against which started the "orange revolution", and the courts overturned the election result. The Leader later got back in as President after more elections and more dirty deeds - poisonings and so on and against the will of the (majority) of people and under economic and military pressure from Russia cancelled the application to join the EU. That's what led to more protests and the president legging it to Russia. The rest of the legislature then basically removed him from his position of President (due to him having done one) while the Russians were invading Crimea and such like. It wasn't "we" who did any of that. Drives me mad to be honest. The west (we) has done lots of bad stuff, but not everything is our fault and we aren't the cause of all the world's troubles and squabbles. I do agree that Nationalism (and also ethnicity) along with religionism are pretty much the three main reasons for all the wars and stuff that go on. It'll be added to before long by basically fighting over resources (though you could fairly argue that some wars have been about those anyway, already). so nationalism, religionism, ethnicity and resources - get rid of those differences and yoko's your aunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger There are a number of reports from decent sources that describe a US orchestrated coup: "Having masterminded the coup in February against the democratically elected government in Kiev, Washington's planned seizure of Russia's historic, legitimate warm-water naval base in Crimea failed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 errr Blandy, it was a coup d'etat, sure yano was a complete asshat and had he stuck around then the legal process would have likely resulted in him losing power legally. Instead, he legged it as things were turning very nasty and a horribly illegal process occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 54 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger There are a number of reports from decent sources that describe a US orchestrated coup: "Having masterminded the coup in February against the democratically elected government in Kiev, Washington's planned seizure of Russia's historic, legitimate warm-water naval base in Crimea failed." I saw a TV programme on it, from a BBC reporter who was there at the time and went back, because he was suspicious of the explanations as to how the whole shooting of the protesters in the square started - I don't recall the exact details, but he'd basically pieced together that Russian, or Russian controlled, snipers has sparked the whole thing off. It was pretty critical of the pro EU majority too, and the conduct of some of the militia type people. It doesn't sound like either "side" exactly respected human rights and all that. And for all that Russia Today or John Pilger may claim it was all the CIA's doing (though to be fair to Pilger who you quote, he's only saying "a few sources describe a US coup - not that he has any evidence or anything.). Plenty more decent sources nail it as a Russian backed crook, doing Russia's bidding and overriding the will of the pro EU people, causing an uprising. But if you or anyone else wants to ignore the Russian involvement, the captured regular Russian army troops in Ukraine, the Russian convoys of tanks and rocket launchers caught on film by locals in Ukraine, and all the rest of it, that's OK. it must have been the CIA that made most Ukrainians want to join the EU (the EU shouldn't let them join - the place is riven with corruption and gangsters, mind). Still it's off topic, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 It is, and I don't doubt that truth in the reporting of Russian troops, tanks and rocket launchers any more than I doubt the presence of the same from the US - as ever the poor beggars in the middle are those that suffer. Ukrainian nationalism was the key used to turn this particular lock, probably from both sides as Ukraine has more than one form of nationalism, I was just making the point that it can be used in much the same way as religion to embolden those that want control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 Ah, OK. The various forms of nationalism is right. A minority want to be Russian and are pretty much ethnically Russian and the majority are not and are the pro EU ones. I might be wrong or naive or both, but I feel that the Russian state under Putin is far more corrupt, manipulative, violent, oppressive, undemocratic, controlling and oppressive and many other negatives in terms of fomenting stuff in Putin's (and his cronies ) interests than is the case with the U.S. and whatever (big business, illuminati, whoever). Russia is seriously, seriously rotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) 8 hours ago, Shaw_nuff said: Is that bit in bold serious? Also - national socialism was evil, but it would wrong to assume all nazis were evil people. Same goes for religion and the religious. To paraphrase Richard Dawkins 'of course not all religious people do bad things. But religion can cause otherwise decent people to do bad things'. It concerns me greatly that someone in a position like George Bush takes a 'consultation with God' as a major part of his decision making. yes its a serious comment. who actually knows how the world was created and how we evolved, i for one dont think we was created by god etc etc but i believe in certain things that shall we say are supernatural. id be very surprised if there was no other life in the universe. we as humans know so little and even the most intelligent of us are dumb in the whole scheme of things because there really is so much to know and find out. Edited December 10, 2015 by Rugeley Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 10, 2015 Administrator Share Posted December 10, 2015 33 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: yes its a serious comment. who actually knows how the world was created and how we evolved. Anyone who has done even basic reading in the subject areas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 6 hours ago, TrentVilla said: Obviously it wouldn't, nobody would argue otherwise. But the removal of religion would remove the belief so many seem to have that being a horrible word removed is what (insert appropriate sky fairy here) would want, no commands them to do. It would remove what they and their supporters see as being divine justification for their actions and/or beliefs. There will always be bad people but without religion it would be that bit harder to bring people to a cause, to justify the most appalling actions and deeds and to do it with clear conscious which some clearly do. Sure people would invent other reasons, nationalism or supposed nationalism being the most likely but its none have the same pull as religion, or at least non that I'm aware of and even fewer offer a seat in a sky palace, more virgins than you can shake a stick your stick at and eternal life... bla... bla...bla I think Steven Weinberg said it best “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” we must have done this to death Hitler / WW2 approx 50 to 70 million dead Stalin - approx 20 million dead Chairman Mao - approx 45 million dead Khmer Rouge - approx 8 million dead But yes, I get the point, this current crisis is linked to the mentally retarded old ladies down the church hall knitting bonnets for african babies, linked to the psycho leaders of the middle east and linked to the arms manufacturers of the west. All three are to blame to some degree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 2 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: yes its a serious comment. who actually knows how the world was created and how we evolved It's easy. God knocked out the basics on Monday, then the Sky on Tuesday followed by the land on the Wednesday which seems a busy day for middle of the week. Thursday, Friday he arsed around a bit coasting to the weekend and on Saturday he knocked out all the land animals and man then bragged about how great he was. He chilled on Sunday or was that Craig David? I get them mixed up although I've seen the later on TV so sadly he actually exists unlike the other one who is less real than Postman Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 4 hours ago, villakram said: errr Blandy, it was a coup d'etat, sure yano was a complete asshat and had he stuck around then the legal process would have likely resulted in him losing power legally. Instead, he legged it as things were turning very nasty and a horribly illegal process occurred. OK that's better put than my effort. Yet it still wasn't "we" overthrew the Ukraine govt. That was really my point. It was and is a mess, but it's not primarily down to the west "interfering" as far as I can read it. My bigger comment is that as much as I agree that the west/we ( or our leaders) have made some terrible decisions / errors / deliberate exploiting and interfering and profiteerw over r the years, there's a trend to say "it's all our fault" or we caused it. Sometimes we were a major factor, and it was for the wrong reasons, sometimes it was for the right reasons but we failed Fter trying our best and sometimes it was nothing to do with us. When you have a situation where if you do something you get the blame and if you do nothing you also get the blame, then maybe the blame apportionment isn't always that accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 4 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: yes its a serious comment. who actually knows how the world was created and how we evolved, i for one dont think we was created by god etc etc but i believe in certain things that shall we say are supernatural. id be very surprised if there was no other life in the universe. we as humans know so little and even the most intelligent of us are dumb in the whole scheme of things because there really is so much to know and find out. Could you be a tad more specific here, e.g., I interpret this as fairies and such? And I'm not really sure how inserting objects created by the human mind has any bearing on the physical happenings of things, and a lucky thing that... can you imagine the mess we'd be in if Geller was in charge? How would one eat his morning cornflakes with those spoons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Religion isn't bad as such, but blind faith is, and for me the more you educate people, the less likely they are to be gullible for specific interpretations of the batshit mental parts of books written long ago. I do think the long term solution to the problems in our world is building roads and schools because if you give people a job and their kids a school to learn science at then they will over a few generations sort themselves out, like we did in Europe, as it's not that long ago that we did batshit things in the name of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 yes its a serious comment. who actually knows how the world was created and how we evolved, i for one dont think we was created by god etc etc but i believe in certain things that shall we say are supernatural. id be very surprised if there was no other life in the universe. we as humans know so little and even the most intelligent of us are dumb in the whole scheme of things because there really is so much to know and find out. Could you be a tad more specific here, e.g., I interpret this as fairies and such? And I'm not really sure how inserting objects created by the human mind has any bearing on the physical happenings of things, and a lucky thing that... can you imagine the mess we'd be in if Geller was in charge? How would one eat his morning cornflakes with those spoons? IIRC based on past posts he means ghosts and shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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