sexbelowsound Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Doesn't that back up what he said? Look again. Maybe I'm missing it. We're matching McLeish and we're struggling to do it. Lambert was managing the team who finished 12th that season. Proof that he can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 25, 2014 Moderator Share Posted November 25, 2014 Even by Lambert's own admission he's failing. The end of last season he said 'it wasn't good enough for this club'. Well, it's looking like the same old crap this season too Paul. Which is what is largely to be expected when you go and spend £10m in a summer when most clubs are far in excess of that. I really don't think that a lack of progress is evidence that Lambert is failing by his own admission. I know for certain that if he were asked today he would still say that the level we are at isn't good enough. No, Lambert failing by his own admission is failing by his own admission. No it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Even by Lambert's own admission he's failing. The end of last season he said 'it wasn't good enough for this club'. Well, it's looking like the same old crap this season too Paul. Which is what is largely to be expected when you go and spend £10m in a summer when most clubs are far in excess of that. I really don't think that a lack of progress is evidence that Lambert is failing by his own admission. I know for certain that if he were asked today he would still say that the level we are at isn't good enough. No, Lambert failing by his own admission is failing by his own admission. I'm really worried that come the end of the season we'll be in real trouble, because those teams that can pass it around a bit tend to start pulling a few 'freak' results out of the bag. We, on the other hand, will be knackered chasing the ball for most of the game, every game. Let's not sugar coat this, our football is prehistoric. It's easilly the most one-dimensional in the the league. The football we serve up week in week out is the worst to watch in the premiership by far, its actually worse than a lot championship sides too. Its just unacceptable and has been since McLeish took over. Lambert has certainly not made things any better since he has been here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) Which is what is largely to be expected when you go and spend £10m in a summer when most clubs are far in excess of that. I really don't think that a lack of progress is evidence that Lambert is failing by his own admission. I know for certain that if he were asked today he would still say that the level we are at isn't good enough. Trent I am the first to acknowledge Lambert hasn’t been dealt a great hand financially but I think the money spent stat over the summer is a little misleading. Fees paid are relatively small but in addition to players we paid money for we got Senderos and Cole on frees and Cleverley was signed on a loan a player that Lambert was happy to pay 8 mill for had the deal have gone through on a permanent transfer. I genuinely don’t know where our wage bill would rank in terms of the league. Cleverly, Sanchez, Cole, Senderos, Cissokho, Richardson I would imagine are on far more than the wages, or partial wages, we are saving on the likes of Sylla, Tonev, Helenius and Bennett who have been loaned out. I would imagine our wage bill is higher than that of Palace, Burnley, West Brom, Leicester, Hull and Swansea and on a par with or near that of a few others. Southampton’s wage bill in 12/13 was 47 million. Given who they sold over the summer I am not sure if it would be much higher than that now and if it would be hugely different to ours. Of course though wages will make a significant difference. I was one of those that argued that I felt that under O’Neill when we had the sixth highest wage bill then were we really spending enough to expect to break into the top 4. However you have to make the best of what funding you have and in terms of that then I think Lambert has done well with the squad he has assembled. We clearly lacked experience in his first couple of seasons but the signings he made over the summer, along with the reintroduction of Hutton, NZogbia and to a lesser extent Bent and also the fact that the younger inexperienced lads would have learned from the experience gained over a couple of Prem seasons meant that going into this season I felt we had the strongest squad we have had in the last 3 – 4 years. The fact he has done well with the squad he has assembled counts for very little though if he can’t get the best out of them. Two and a half years into Lamberts tenure and I genuinely couldn't tell you what our game plan is or define our style of play. We struggle to keep the ball beyond a few passes, we don’t press high enough up the field so therefore simply invite teams to come onto us, we don’t have a defined way of attacking teams other than to either catch teams on the break, which has very rarely happened over the last year or so, or if Benteke or Kozak play lump it up top, hope it sticks and we can build something from there. I would love to say otherwise but I really don’t think in terms of style of play we have shown any improvement in Lamberts time and clearly the results would back up that opinion. Big turnover in players, changes in coaching staff but one constant remains and whilst he has built a half decent squad we haven’t made any improvement in terms of results or performances and he has to be held accountable for that. Edited November 25, 2014 by markavfc40 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted November 25, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 25, 2014 If he does blame him for things he does a good job at hiding it. Fwiw: Things I don't blame Lambert for: - Injuries - Karsagate - Squad strength Really? Unbelievable. Exactly what does he manage, then? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jackbauer24 Posted November 25, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted November 25, 2014 It is well documented that Lambert has both hands tied behind his back as regards transfers/ wages. However, it is how much weight you give to the money equals success/ lack of it equals failure argument. To me, money equals success 9 times out of 10. No money results in failure 9.5 times out of ten! Last night's starting eleven cost approximately £25m? Of which nearly half is N'Zogbia (a player Lambert didn't buy and has been an underachiever in Claret and Blue at best). Of our standard first eleven, only Delph (leaving) and Benteke cost more than £5m. We are a small team. If our transfers are that small, I'm sure the wages roughly tally. It's said our squad cost is approximately £81m. Take away Bent, N'Zogbia and soon to be Delph and it costs about £41m. In the last two seasons Lambert has bought 11 players that have been (at least intended) to feature in our team regularly. The average cost of those 11 players is £2.2m. Unfortunately in this league you will not make progress spending £2.2m on a player (and the likely low wages that go with it). I don't think you can argue he could have bought just three players of greater quality if you look at our injury list! In fact last summer/ transfer window (info taken from Transferleague.co.uk): Aston Villa spent £6.7mNewly Promoted: Leicester spent £11m Burnley spent £6.5m QPR spent £35.5mTeams we fought relegation with last season: Hull spent £37m Crystal Palace spent £10.9m Sunderland spent £14m West Brom spent £15.1m West Ham £27m Swansea £15m Why, oh why aren't we progressing?! It really isn't rocket science. What can Lambert REALLY do that is going to make a significant impact? Lambert has spent over 4m on only four occasions since he has been here: Benteke (£10m), Kozak (£5m), Okore (£4m) and Sanchez (£4m) - none of them have been a disaster yet. Benteke alone will probably at least double his value, Kozak and Okore have had awful injuries and Sanchez is not yet settled (although he was bloody awful last night!) Lambert has taken gambles of under £4m on a host of players with mixed success, Vlaar stand out bright point (£3.2m) but I don't see how anyone can get a Premier League club even comfortably surviving on these sorts of finances? Lambert has made mistakes but NO manager will get us comfortable with these financial constraints - it will be a battle against relegation every year. Lambert is not the real problem, see past it. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To simply boil it down. I hate the style of football he has us playing, it's as bad as I've ever seen us play in my lifetime. If the results were satisfactory then I could live with it, but on the whole they haven't been. Looking through the squad individually it isn't too bad at all and I feel has the ability to be competing higher than scraping survival each year and surely that has to go down to the manager, even with migrating circumstances considered. It's the worst squad I have ever seen in my lifetime, and by some distance. Nobody could get these clowns to hold onto a ball for 5 passes. A Squad that has beat Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City and drawn against apparently, an on form Southampton side last night. This is not a poor side, its just run by a poor manager who continues to coach the team into a defensive unit, which is why there is no confindence to go out and win a game. He blatently has no faith in the team to go out and attack for a win, he is in self presevation mode, scared of that 5+ loss that will see him sacked. You can tell he is a man under intense pressure, although as he proved last night will never admit it, something I respected Roger's admitting yesterday. Unfortunately for him his dour interviews are becoming like the denial we saw from McLeish. To simply boil it down. I hate the style of football he has us playing, it's as bad as I've ever seen us play in my lifetime. If the results were satisfactory then I could live with it, but on the whole they haven't been. Looking through the squad individually it isn't too bad at all and I feel has the ability to be competing higher than scraping survival each year and surely that has to go down to the manager, even with migrating circumstances considered. It's the worst squad I have ever seen in my lifetime, and by some distance. Nobody could get these clowns to hold onto a ball for 5 passes. A Squad that has beat Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City and drawn against apparently, an on form Southampton side last night. This is not a poor side, its just run by a poor manager who continues to coach the team into a defensive unit, which is why there is no confindence to go out and win a game. He blatently has no faith in the team to go out and attack for a win, he is in self presevation mode, scared of that 5+ loss that will see him sacked. You can tell he is a man under intense pressure, although as he proved last night will never admit it, something I respected Roger's admitting yesterday. Unfortunately for him his dour interviews are becoming like the denial we saw from McLeish. Y'know, a good comparison is Wigan Athletic. They came up the divisions with a young, dynamic manager (Martinez) eventually being in charge. They got to the Premier League and played generally eye-catching football. However, they failed to match the spending of all the other clubs. They kept playing attractive football and even drew some eye-catching results in a run that saw them beat Man City, Man Utd and Arsenal to list but 3 and also saw them beat Man City in a cup final. Ultimately, though, they didn't spend enough and got relegated - despite playing plenty of attacking football. People may well get frustrated with how defensive we are (I certainly am - although it's nice to see us being more defensively solid than in previous seasons), and that's fair enough. Lambert is keeping us in the league, though - which is better for our future whether it involves him and Lerner, one of them or both of them having gone. McLesh kept us in the league so maybe we should have kept him? When lambert came here to his own admission he promised to bring attacking entertaining football back to Villa park, to me he has failed to produce and is playing it like a manager intent on keeping his job by reverting back to defensive football scared of the 5+ 0 loss that will see him out of our club. Even with Benteke in the squad he panics, goes standard defensive and the style ends up being long ball to benteke which to me just spells out someone running out of ideas at our club. On another note and to answer your question on Wigan, your exactly right its a great comparision, because Wigan were also crying out for a change in manager for many a season, but due to Whelans love in for Martinez they also never got their change. Martinez built a very attacking team and was very gung ho in his style with wigan, completely the opposite of Lambert although believe me they both have the same ending...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Richard I won't quote your whole post but I do agree with a lot of what you say regarding last night's game. But I don't see the point analysing an individual game to defend what was atrocious football. I doubt the same level of analysis would be done to show why we should have beaten lower league cup competition. Also we're into his 3rd year. I could accept performances like last night if this was his 1st year in charge but we're 100 games in and on the whole I see no improvement or progress. For me that's failure on his part. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Last night Southampton took a player off they bought in the summer who cost double our entire summer spend Last night they were able to play an inform first team made up of the current England flavour of the month, a top Italian striker who has scored goals for fun, an attacking midfielder who was cherished by a few clubs in the summer at upwards of 25M and a left back bought for around 8M who we all jizzed over last season, and many more first team regulars 7 of whom are ever presents and a back four untouched in god knows how many games They are second in the league on merit They have "their best premier league record against Villa " and I hate that as every team we play seems to have a best record against us for one thing or another We had a largely experimental back four with a player retuening after being out of first team action for 15 months and his partner who, frankly, have the fans would rather not play for us again A defensive midfielder who is getting used to this league and another who is struggling to adapt to life at a new club A forward line without ouir best player and one who is showing evidence of retiring from first team football and Nzogbia who to be honest has never played for us, not once. You know what, the team we picked is probably about the best we could have picked currently given our injury status. The one they picked is better than ours and it pains me to say a team like Southampton who were two divisions below us when Lerner arrived I think, are better than us We were on the back of some awful form admittedly some of that against top teams, and they are on the back of champions league form many predicted a defeat, some including myself by huge margins We didnt lose, we competed, it wasnt pretty and at times it was a bit lucky, but we've had bad luck too so its about time we had some good. Fair play to lambert for that not sure what else we could have done last night in the circumstances. We did not have the personnel to play attacking flowing football without getting hammered Sorry Richard, I usually agree with you on many things but on Lambert I am struggling to see the positives. 1 shot on target last night 2 points from 8 games 6 goals scored all season, the least in the Premier League and only just over half of what have been scored by 2 out of the 3 bottom three clubs. Bizarre substitutions. Issues that we saw on the pitch before he was appointed still not put right. I could go on. I cannot see what is going to change if he stays even with better backing he doesnt strike me as the person who can make the sort of change at our club the Graham Taylor did when he first came and I think it needs that kind of complete overhaul. Lerner has taken us down to this level while wasting millions but the only reason Lambert is in his third year is because Lerner is acting in his best interests and not the best interests of the club. What a fine custodian he is................................. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villanun Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) So here's a question for those of us who think Lambert should be fired: could he still change your mind? If we were to get wins out of the next few games would you still want him gone? Can he redeem himself over the rest of the season, or is he too far gone? Edited November 25, 2014 by Villanun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So here's a question for those of us who think Lambert should be fired: could he still change your mind? If we were to get wins out of the next few games would you still want him gone? Can he redeem himself over the rest of the season, or is he too far gone? Probably too far for me. Even if I did see some improvement I think I'd still be praying for a takeover and new manager in the summer. In the mean time, if I saw some improvements in the style of play and results I'd be less critical of him and credit him with getting more out of the squad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacbuddies Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So here's a question for those of us who think Lambert should be fired: could he still change your mind? If we were to get wins out of the next few games would you still want him gone? Can he redeem himself over the rest of the season, or is he too far gone? If he were to: 1. Start playing a more attractive style of football. 2. Win more than half the home games. 3. Finish at least 12th to 14th in the league. 4. Achieve more than 40 points for the season. Then I might think about changing my mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Things I don't blame Lambert for: - Injuries - Karsagate - Squad strength Really? Unbelievable. Exactly what does he manage, then? What would you do if you were the manager? You have two assistants that have helped you win three successive promotions and a job at one of the biggest and best clubs in England. Their methods have always worked for you before. Do you owe them nothing? Do you sack them at the first sign of trouble? Or do you give them the chance to do things differently first? How can you expect loyalty if you don't show it to others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So here's a question for those of us who think Lambert should be fired: could he still change your mind? If we were to get wins out of the next few games would you still want him gone? Can he redeem himself over the rest of the season, or is he too far gone? Too far, he has been crap since day one and 2 and half years later its the same old crap. I have a feeling Burnley away could be his final game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So here's a question for those of us who think Lambert should be fired: could he still change your mind? If we were to get wins out of the next few games would you still want him gone? Can he redeem himself over the rest of the season, or is he too far gone? Too far, he has been crap since day one and 2 and half years later its the same old crap. I have a feeling Burnley away could be his final game I'll give you 50:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudevillaisnice Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I think fans are starting to lose patience with him, have a feeling we will have another "Bolton" game coming soon especially with the way he sets up the team. He can have no complaints either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So here's a question for those of us who think Lambert should be fired: could he still change your mind? If we were to get wins out of the next few games would you still want him gone? Can he redeem himself over the rest of the season, or is he too far gone? There will never be consistancy from Lambert, draw against Southampton, lose against Burnley. This is his biggest downfall and will never change. 100 games proves this...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted November 25, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 25, 2014 So here's a question for those of us who think Lambert should be fired: could he still change your mind? If we were to get wins out of the next few games would you still want him gone? Can he redeem himself over the rest of the season, or is he too far gone? If he were to: 1. Start playing a more attractive style of football. 2. Win more than half the home games. 3. Finish at least 12th to 14th in the league. 4. Achieve more than 40 points for the season. Then I might think about changing my mind. Ok, interesting. I think we will finish at least 14th to be honest and that would mean 3 and 4 gettign satisfied. Would that do? At what cost would 1 be acceptable (e.g. finishing lower down the league)? Good to see what it would take from one of the vocal critics though. good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 If we're being specific I would say 11/12th position, 48-50 points and better football being played. That would make me think we were going places with him in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted November 25, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 25, 2014 What would you do if you were the manager? You have two assistants that have helped you win three successive promotions and a job at one of the biggest and best clubs in England. Their methods have always worked for you before. Do you owe them nothing? Do you sack them at the first sign of trouble? Or do you give them the chance to do things differently first? How can you expect loyalty if you don't show it to others? Sorry - there is a big difference between loyalty and gross misconduct which gets you fired. At worst: Lambert is culpable. At best: Lambert is responsible. Any way you slice it - he is to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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