TRO Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 The problem at Villa has always been a collective one, so I see no point in blaming any individual for it. The game itself is a collective one and some players have a profound effect on others for the good and the bad and that can sometimes be difficult to detect, just like the problems off the field. I would prefere to say.... as a group we have struggled for some time now and the signs do not seem to be getting much better....sure we will change players, change CEO's and managers, but not much changes. You can change the bowler, but we need to change the bowling. Even if a new owner comes in, it has all been assumed it will get better....Unless it is an owner that can negate all the Nous required, by throwing huge sums at it and getting it wrong becomes immaterial, because the rule of "we are bound to get it right eventually" applies ......I don't see much future. I am fascinated to see one of these "more money than sense" men come forward.....perhaps Man city & PSG can tell us how to attract them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 16, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted July 16, 2014 So doom and gloom. We're a football club, just like the majority. We have good seasons and bad, win the odd cup. That's the nature of the beast. I wonder if those alive between 1920 and 1957 were this consistently miserable. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 So doom and gloom. We're a football club, just like the majority. We have good seasons and bad, win the odd cup. That's the nature of the beast. I wonder if those alive between 1920 and 1957 were this consistently miserable. I'm sure they were they just had nowhere to moan about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 So doom and gloom. We're a football club, just like the majority. We have good seasons and bad, win the odd cup. That's the nature of the beast. I wonder if those alive between 1920 and 1957 were this consistently miserable. well... averaging 8th placed finish during that period perhaps not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 So doom and gloom. We're a football club, just like the majority. We have good seasons and bad, win the odd cup. That's the nature of the beast. I wonder if those alive between 1920 and 1957 were this consistently miserable. Im sure they had a wee celebration when WW2 ended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 So doom and gloom. We're a football club, just like the majority. We have good seasons and bad, win the odd cup. That's the nature of the beast. I wonder if those alive between 1920 and 1957 were this consistently miserable. This is actually a good point. There is so much doom and gloom because our expectations are so high. As time goes by we will be grateful for promotions and relegation survival like the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_of_Pongo_Waring Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 So doom and gloom. We're a football club, just like the majority. We have good seasons and bad, win the odd cup. That's the nature of the beast. I wonder if those alive between 1920 and 1957 were this consistently miserable. well... averaging 8th placed finish during that period perhaps not. Actually between 1920 and 1957 our average position was 10th not 8th (10.26 to be precise). During Randy Lerners stewardship our average position is 10th or 11th, (depending if you round up or down as the exact figure is 10.5), so not a great deal of difference. Presumably supporters in the earlier period had more reason to moan though as they saw our first ever relegation in 1935/36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 So doom and gloom. We're a football club, just like the majority. We have good seasons and bad, win the odd cup. That's the nature of the beast. I wonder if those alive between 1920 and 1957 were this consistently miserable. They were busy dying for freedom I. Spain and WW2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 16, 2014 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2014 On topic folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So if we survive this season, considering the circumstances, can it be assumed Lambert has done a good job? I keep changing my mind on this. A week ago I felt that nothing this season could really be put on Lambert but then thinking about it are the current restraints worse than last summer? Yes the club is for sale and yes the owner is useless. But Lambert has been able to bring in a big name as his assistant manager. He's also been allowed to sign experienced premiership players, which last summer he did not have the ability to do due to wage limitations. I think the 3 we've signed are probably earning more or at least the same as all the signings we made last summer. Add to this that he's been allowed to bring the bomb squad back into the action and we're potentially signing the likes of ki and I start to think he's got it better than he did last summer. So given that I'm starting to question it again. Should all the blame be put on Lerner if this season is poor? Now I'm in no way defending the owner or claiming he's funded enough for us to expect a good season but there's a real difference between our current activity and what went on last summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So if we survive this season, considering the circumstances, can it be assumed Lambert has done a good job? I keep changing my mind on this. A week ago I felt that nothing this season could really be put on Lambert but then thinking about it are the current restraints worse than last summer? Yes the club is for sale and yes the owner is useless. But Lambert has been able to bring in a big name as his assistant manager. He's also been allowed to sign experienced premiership players, which last summer he did not have the ability to do due to wage limitations. I think the 3 we've signed are probably earning more or at least the same as all the signings we made last summer. Add to this that he's been allowed to bring the bomb squad back into the action and we're potentially signing the likes of ki and I start to think he's got it better than he did last summer. So given that I'm starting to question it again. Should all the blame be put on Lerner if this season is poor? Now I'm in no way defending the owner or claiming he's funded enough for us to expect a good season but there's a real difference between our current activity and what went on last summer. I agree. Whilst signing top players isn't going to happen a good manager still needs to get the best out of what he has available. Last season I don't think Lambert managed to do that. Therefore if it seems the player are lacklustre (like last season), tactics are consistently wrong, and performances are still negative Lambert in my eyes will still have failed irrelevant whether we stay up or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I don't think the tactics he uses really matters. It's all about results for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TrentVilla Posted July 17, 2014 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted July 17, 2014 I keep changing my mind on this. A week ago I felt that nothing this season could really be put on Lambert but then thinking about it are the current restraints worse than last summer? Yes the club is for sale and yes the owner is useless. But Lambert has been able to bring in a big name as his assistant manager. He's also been allowed to sign experienced premiership players, which last summer he did not have the ability to do due to wage limitations. I think the 3 we've signed are probably earning more or at least the same as all the signings we made last summer. Add to this that he's been allowed to bring the bomb squad back into the action and we're potentially signing the likes of ki and I start to think he's got it better than he did last summer. So given that I'm starting to question it again. Should all the blame be put on Lerner if this season is poor? Now I'm in no way defending the owner or claiming he's funded enough for us to expect a good season but there's a real difference between our current activity and what went on last summer. An interesting post, I'm not sure I agree with all your points but I think it highlights the complexity of forming an accurate assessment of Lambert and his time here both to date and this season. Personally I don't think a manager can ever be entirely absolved of any blame for a season, it is inevitable that every manager will make decisions both positive and negative that impact upon the end result. In that sense I don't think any manager can be given free of any blame. I've consistently defended Lambert on here and don't think he is as much to blame for these last two seasons as some but I would never entirely absolve him either, I don't think anyone does despite accusations that are floated on here from time to time. Lambert has got things wrong at times to date and will this summer and next season. As much as I think Lerner is to blame for the last few years and what happens this year, while he is the cause he isn't the only factor either. In terms of the restraints and the question you pose, are they worse than last season, I would say without question yes. The very fact the club is for sale and the uncertainty that brings for a start makes the situation worse, for Lambert, for his players and those he is trying to sign. As does the resulting departure of Faulkner whatever we may have thought of him, his absence compared to last summer will have some impact and consequence. But moving away from circumstances to budgets, I would also argue the situation is worse. I can see your point, yes he has signed some experience this summer and yes he has brought in Keane as his number two. But I'm not sure that indicates that the backing he is receiving from Lerner is better than last year or even on a par. Last summer he spent something in the region of around £12-£15m depending on which figures you believe (we will have to await financial results to give an accurate figure) on players, most of whom were young players signed with a view to the long term and building a squad on which we could continue to build. Whatever people think of the players he signed, most will likely improve in their time here or if not move on again not having cost us much when they do. It was I believe part of Lambert's attempt to manage the club in a sustainable way, with lower wages than in the past and from which this summer we could add less players at higher individual values to add quality. So last summer was part of a bigger plan and strategy. Only the situation has changed, the club is up for sale and now Lambert is having to use the bosman market to try and add the experience and quality to the squad he had, which is quite clearly not what he would have been expecting to be doing after 2 years in the job. So yes, he has signed 3 experienced players and yes they will be on reasonable wages but in terms of actually spending money on players, in terms of fee's he has spent nothing or next to nothing if there was a nominal fee involved for Richardson. So for me, that is quite a step backwards from last summer and at this stage (I accept there is a long time to go in this window) he hasn't got anywhere near the same level of resources available to him. You are right regarding the bomb squad, that is a fair point he does have the additional (questionable) resources of Bent and Hutton but that's all, the rest have either gone or were still on the wage bill last season. And yes he brought in Keane but that was in place of two out going members of staff so i'm not sure that is all that relevant. Meanwhile, with the exception of the newly promoted sides the rest of the league are looking forward to their 2nd year of the bumper new TV deal and will be looking to invest in their squads in a way that Lerner seemingly isn't willing to do. We might sign Ki, although I'm far from convinced we will, but if we do it won't be for the £6m I've seen banded around because I just don't think Lambert has that sort of money to spend. I don't think he could afford to go and buy Kozak or Okore this summer, some will probably say good, but for me that is a real concern. So in answer to your post, no I don't think he has the same level of backing from Lerner this summer and while I wouldn't absolve him from criticism next season because of it the main blame for me will predominately lie elsewhere with out absentee idiotic owner. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Not a lot to disagree with trent I said as much a few pages back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feidhlim Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 We might sign Ki, although I'm far from convinced we will, but if we do it won't be for the £6m I've seen banded around because I just don't think Lambert has that sort of money to spend. I don't think he could afford to go and buy Kozak or Okore this summer, some will probably say good, but for me that is a real concern. When judging Lambert I think we need to go all the way back to last season. When Lerner said "you have X amount to use" did Lambert then decide to plough ahead with the youth project? When buying these players, they have the potential of increasing in value 3x or 4x over (Benteke). If he didn't have the adaquate resources to buy the youth players like Benteke and he settled on players like Luna for a fraction of the cost, it's a huge oversight by Lambert. If he didn't have the resources available to him then, which he or Lerner has acknowledged this season, he should have brought back the bomb squad and signed the Bosmans last season. The Bosman players are here to get us "over the line" until new owners come in. It is effectively admitting defeat for Lamberts or Lerners plan of youth. The Bosmans will never increase in value 3x or 4x. They have hit their uninspiring peak and will hopefully be a stop gap for a massive hole or two in the team. Back on point, if Lerner insisted we follow the youth project and didn't give resources last season, he is to blame. If Lambert ploughed ahead with the youth project and couldn't get his number 1 targets (or more worryingly he did), he is to blame. We will never know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan501 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 We have diced wuth relegation last fews years we need more quality lerner knows this wigan survived on a thin budget then they ran outta luck thst will happen to us but lerner has made his bed so he better lie in it. We will struggle again this season dont you worry about that young and hungry didnt work nor will tightening the pursestrings villa as a big club is no more folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I don't think the tactics he uses really matters. It's all about results for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I don't think the tactics he uses really matters. It's all about results for the time being. I'd agree to an extent, but if a poor tactical decision leads to a defeat (which I think did happen last season) then rightfully he should be criticised. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 We might sign Ki, although I'm far from convinced we will, but if we do it won't be for the £6m I've seen banded around because I just don't think Lambert has that sort of money to spend. I don't think he could afford to go and buy Kozak or Okore this summer, some will probably say good, but for me that is a real concern. When judging Lambert I think we need to go all the way back to last season. When Lerner said "you have X amount to use" did Lambert then decide to plough ahead with the youth project? When buying these players, they have the potential of increasing in value 3x or 4x over (Benteke). If he didn't have the adaquate resources to buy the youth players like Benteke and he settled on players like Luna for a fraction of the cost, it's a huge oversight by Lambert. If he didn't have the resources available to him then, which he or Lerner has acknowledged this season, he should have brought back the bomb squad and signed the Bosmans last season. The Bosman players are here to get us "over the line" until new owners come in. It is effectively admitting defeat for Lamberts or Lerners plan of youth. The Bosmans will never increase in value 3x or 4x. They have hit their uninspiring peak and will hopefully be a stop gap for a massive hole or two in the team. Back on point, if Lerner insisted we follow the youth project and didn't give resources last season, he is to blame. If Lambert ploughed ahead with the youth project and couldn't get his number 1 targets (or more worryingly he did), he is to blame. We will never know for sure. If i was going to sum up this post for me i'd use this 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomh621 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I don't think the tactics he uses really matters. It's all about results for the time being. I'd agree to an extent, but if a poor tactical decision leads to a defeat (which I think did happen last season) then rightfully he should be criticised. Tactics get results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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