Rovers13 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 They still are. They have their Black Sea fleet stationed there and regularly use the port. As I said, I'm sure they're concerned about losing access due to the nationalist govt, and it's the biggest port they use that doesn't freeze over in the summer.I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they are there and there is/was obviously some sort of arrangement but my question was about it being part of that memorandum (i.e. being wrapped up in the whole nuclear disarmament/territorial integrity issue and thus involving the UK, US and others). Well it wasn't done at the same time, but common sense would dictate that they wouldn't sign a deal respecting Ukraines territorial integrity if they though ukraine would prevent them at some point from using the port that they had agreed to be allowed to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Hague is pulling no punches. We're out of the winter Paralympics I detect a slight hint of sarcasm in your post. However, there's not *much* we can do aside from take a moral stance. Why ? We should invade Russia . What are the TA playing at ? They were called but Cameron just got an answer phone message saying they'd be ready in 2020. @torydefencecuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) The chaos doesn't bother Russia, just look at Syria. What matters is keeping NATO from their door. Exactly. A Russian MP was interviewed on BBC radio and said Russia would risk a war to prevent Ukraine moving into the NATO sphere of influence which they felt was on the cards. This fear of "chaos" and an "uber-nationalist" new gov in Kiev line is cobblers, simple (but clearly effective) Russian maskirovka. Following a revolution when every man and his dog have been out on the street, having a slack handful of dribblers waving swastikas is inevitable, but not representative. Edited March 3, 2014 by Awol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 I think Germany will move for the Sudetenland and just call it a day there. It would be disadvantageous for them to try and take over Czechoslovakia. Whether they should be allowed to just claim the Sudetenland is a whole other matter, but I hope they just stop there and we avoid WWII. Me too, Neville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) I also don't think you can necessarily tie the power of a leader to that of the nation - the oversight within the country comes in to it. Putin's power comes from being able to (allegedly ) use Russia to do whatever the **** he wants without concerning himself with things like constitutions or free and fair elections. Russia's puny GDP is definitely the key. It would seem that it proves that Russia are not quite integrated into the global free-market economy, which while keeping them relatively poor, gives them substantially more power than countries who can't afford to upset anyone because of their economic dependence on other nations. So I see globalisation as Mercantilism in reverse. Mercantilism being an economic theory and practice which saw another country's gain as a loss. This was replaced by the theory of 'comparative advantage' and free-trade. The failure of Russia to fully integrate their economy into the West's gives them the freedom to have a limited form of democracy and the freedom of action because there are very few sanctions that can be brought to bear (no pun intended). The West's dependence on Russian oil and gas gives the same impunity which states like Saudi Arabia and the rest of the totalitarian oil-rich states enjoy. Edited March 3, 2014 by MakemineVanilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The Americans aren't going to like being made to look toothless, again. Just wondering if an attack on Syria, as a way of both pissing off Putin and reaffirming the US position in the World order, could seem more attractive now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The Americans aren't going to like being made to look toothless, again. they did nothing in Chechnya, nothing in South Ossetia , nothing in Syria woe betide the next third word despot that steps out of line though as they will feel the US's full might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 ...nothing in Syria. Only because we refused to hold their hand. Had Cameron secured Parliament's backing, we'd be there already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 ...nothing in Syria. Only because we refused to hold their hand. Had Cameron secured Parliament's backing, we'd be there already. "Britain is important diplomatically, but not required, and not required militarily" probably says otherwise ... I think Syria goes down to another Putin victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 We certainly aren't required from a military standpoint, we probably slow them down a bit. Diplomatically? If we, traditionally the strongest ally, can't be persuaded by US logic, then no one's going to buy their version of events. I think that's what stopped them in Syria when it was all over the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26424738#TWEET1060896 Russia have given Ukraine 12 hours to surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Not quite. On the 'ultimatum' Shaun Walker @shaunwalker7 Also, it seems to be coming from Russian interfax, quoting Ukrainian Interior Ministry. That should ring some alarm bells, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjackle Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 That guy is back tracking on twitter now and the bbc are going with it. We probably wont know the truth for a couple of hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Caught the back end in 5 live but it seems our outrage doesn't extended to financial services and anything that is likely to hurt the UK economy Nice work UK government , that will show the rest of the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 No point cutting off our nose to Spite Russia's face, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Will a new country be formed from this, that is the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Can't speak for what the US government will do but most folks here will do everything to avoid conflict where we put boots on the ground. Don't expect anything from the US militarily unless it pops off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I think Germany will move for the Sudetenland and just call it a day there. It would be disadvantageous for them to try and take over Czechoslovakia. Whether they should be allowed to just claim the Sudetenland is a whole other matter, but I hope they just stop there and we avoid WWII. Me too, Neville I mean they wouldn't really do it. Right? Right... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 So the West will basically do nothing 'cus we don't want to piss off financial institutions who rely on dirty money. Nice one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 if in doubt follow the money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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