Electric Avenue Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 This is all a bit strange. Western Europe ready for a mass migration of pissed off Ukrainians? To be fair, I'd welcome some of their women over here with open arms. You do need to sleep with one eye open though ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 It always amazes me that whenever there is a diplomatic flareup in the world, one of the very first moves countries make is to withdraw their ambassadors, the very people who should remain engaged in DIPLOMACY. Fools, all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hague is pulling no punches. We're out of the winter Paralympics 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hague is pulling no punches. We're out of the winter Paralympics I detect a slight hint of sarcasm in your post. However, there's not *much* we can do aside from take a moral stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hague is pulling no punches. We're out of the winter Paralympics I detect a slight hint of sarcasm in your post. However, there's not *much* we can do aside from take a moral stance. Why ? We should invade Russia . What are the TA playing at ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Crimea is kind of complicated, I'm not trying to condone Putins actions but it was russian for 300 years till Kruschev arbitrarily gave it to ukraine and it's a very important strategic port for them. Plus it has an ethnic russian majority and the people there will almost certainly vote to join Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 2, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted March 2, 2014 'Kievan Rus' is generally accepted as the place where Russian culture began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Chicken Kiev will never taste the same again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Crimea is kind of complicated, I'm not trying to condone Putins actions but it was russian for 300 years till Kruschev arbitrarily gave it to ukraine and it's a very important strategic port for them. Plus it has an ethnic russian majority and the people there will almost certainly vote to join Russia.Yet, as Awol pointed out earlier, the Russians were signatories (along with the UK, US and others) to a 'memorandum' (I thought that was something one sent as a reminder to get the bacon sarnies in) regarding Ukrainian sovereignty in order to secure Ukrainian nuclear disarmament.The historical boundaries argument is spurious at the best of times but it doesn't wash as a way out of international promises (that those promises may not have carried any weight to start with is a different kettle of stuff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 The World Cup and qualifiers would be a damn site easier if we could just get the USSR back together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Crimea is kind of complicated, I'm not trying to condone Putins actions but it was russian for 300 years till Kruschev arbitrarily gave it to ukraine and it's a very important strategic port for them. Plus it has an ethnic russian majority and the people there will almost certainly vote to join Russia.Yet, as Awol pointed out earlier, the Russians were signatories (along with the UK, US and others) to a 'memorandum' (I thought that was something one sent as a reminder to get the bacon sarnies in) regarding Ukrainian sovereignty in order to secure Ukrainian nuclear disarmament. The historical boundaries argument is spurious at the best of times but it doesn't wash as a way out of international promises (that those promises may not have carried any weight to start with is a different kettle of stuff). I understand that, and Russia is more in the wrong I think, but the issue is that they made that agreement at a time when they were promised the continued ability to use the Crimean port and keep their fleet there etc. Being how uber-nationalist the new government seems to be, once they get established it's certainly a possibility that they could take away Russia's ability to use Crimea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I understand that, and Russia is more in the wrong I think, but the issue is that they made that agreement at a time when they were promised the continued ability to use the Crimean port and keep their fleet there etc.Were they? Even if they were that doesn't excuse breaking the promises in order to prevent possible future breaches of those promises by the other party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I think Russia will move for the Crimea and just call it a day there. It would be disadvantageous for them to try and take over Ukraine. Whether they should be allowed to just claim the Crimea is a whole other matter, but I hope they just stop there and we avoid WWIII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) I understand that, and Russia is more in the wrong I think, but the issue is that they made that agreement at a time when they were promised the continued ability to use the Crimean port and keep their fleet there etc.Were they? Even if they were that doesn't excuse breaking the promises in order to prevent possible future breaches of those promises by the other party. They still are. They have their Black Sea fleet stationed there and regularly use the port. As I said, I'm sure they're concerned about losing access due to the nationalist govt, and it's the biggest port they use that doesn't freeze over in the summer. But... Putins still a world class asshole. Edited March 3, 2014 by Rovers13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) They still are. They have their Black Sea fleet stationed there and regularly use the port. As I said, I'm sure they're concerned about losing access due to the nationalist govt, and it's the biggest port they use that doesn't freeze over in the summer.I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they are there and there is/was obviously some sort of arrangement but my question was about it being part of that memorandum (i.e. being wrapped up in the whole nuclear disarmament/territorial integrity issue and thus involving the UK, US and others). Edited March 3, 2014 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Biro Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I think Russia will move for the Crimea and just call it a day there. It would be disadvantageous for them to try and take over Ukraine. Whether they should be allowed to just claim the Crimea is a whole other matter, but I hope they just stop there and we avoid WWIII Relax, nobodys going to war over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I'm sure that's what Franz Ferdinand thought too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Biro Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Very different ages and situations, far too much at stake these days and everyone knows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Very different ages and situations, far too much at stake these days and everyone knows it.Availability heuristic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 The head of the Ukrainian Navy had defected to Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts