John

Many thanks for digging this one out smetrov. I like Cruyff thought it was all over at 0-2 but Ken (what a header!)& Dixie had other ideas and we did got our own back in the 1983 Super Cup. Juventus in 83 were very near a "dream team" (although so were we Villa wise when you look back at it now) they had the likes of Zoff, Gentile (anything but gentle), Cabrini, Tardelli, Platini, Bettega, Rossi and Boniek (rather than Bonhof I think smetrov)and this was the first time since 1976 that an English team had not won the EC (as Liverpool went out in the QFs as well). But unlike us the year before Juventus did not go on to win it and we did get revenge of sorts when we beat them in the Peace Cup Final....

Thanks for those stats BOF. Still ahead points wise on games last season and with a free hit at West Ham.

1) 8th or higher and an odd cup run back then. But there was always the hope that a club like us could come out of the pack and win something as we did with the League Cup and almost did in the league in 89/90 & 92/3 and with the FA Cup in 2000. But under the former chairman we never pushed on as was best shown on his return post Rotterdam 82 glory. 2) That we would really give getting into the top 4 a go, win the odd cup and be in Europe more often than not and we would not give up on these things happening any time soon. 3) Mid-table at best or a relegation fight and no cup wins. 4) More of the same. I think we are stuck on a cycle of building up players, selling them on at a profit and going again. What has happened to that bright future?

C.B.Fry anyone? In 1893 he equalled the world record for the long jump. From 1894 to 1908 he played cricket as an opening batsman for Sussex and on tour in South Africa in 1895-96, when he was twenty-three, he played the first of twenty-six test matches for England. Meanwhile Fry played rugby for Blackheath and the Barbarians, and as an association footballer played full-back for the Corinthians and Southampton, and later Portsmouth. He won two international football caps in 1901and played for Southampton in the FA cup final of 1902. He finished his county cricket career with Hampshire and captained England in 1912. His test career ended against India in 1922, when he was fifty, and his final first-class batting average was 50.22 with 94 centuries.

Agree 100% on those points villa-revolution.

Those games take us to the end of the year and to the next transfer window. We will by then have played 20 games so the league table will show what we will be playing for during the rest of the season. 11 more points or less would put us on target for another relegation battle. 12 - 16 points would give us a little breathing space and 17 - 20 would put us on the way to mid table security. Anything more although highly unlikely would put us where as a club we would really expect to be. Having looked at the fixtures I think 12 points is around what I would anticipate us getting.

Thanks for the music - RIP Lou.

Notts County have sacked manager Chris Kiwomya along with his number two Mick Jones and first team coach Andy Watson following their 1-0 defeat against Preston at Meadow Lane on Saturday. Kiwomya took charge in February, as caretaker boss at first after Keith Curle was sacked and he was then given a three-year deal in March. He brought Jones and Watson into his management team in the summer. Their development squad manager Steve Hodge is to be in charge of their next league game against Oldham at Meadow Lane on Tuesday night..... Scary stuff so near to Halloween given this former Villa player who I would suggest is loathed even more than Stewart Downing due to the nature of his departure from our football club could have any sort of influence albeit in the short term on one of our brightest young prospects.

Source: Player Match Ratings: Villa pay the penalty for missed chances!

At half time it was surprising that an end to end game still remained scoreless. But by full time our wretched home record had been maintained due to goal opportunities being spurned by us and our defensive frailties being exploited late in the game so another home defeat was the predictable end result. So Everton stretch their recent unbeaten record against us to six and in so doing get only their third league win at Villa Park since 1987. But the end result could have been so different had Benteke’s early penalty not been kept out by Howard, had we put away one of the several chances we made after that, had referee Taylor brought Everton down to ten men by sending off McCarthy for the challenge he made on Westwood before they had opened their scoring and had we found the money this summer to have Barry steady our midfield rather than do the same for our opponents yesterday. But none of these things came to pass and a fourth home defeat from our first five league games of the season at Villa Park is very hard to take. This was a game we really should not have lost and that on the balance of play we deserved something from. We had the chances early on to have opened up a two goal lead and had the better of a first half that had opportunities been taken by both sides and the respective goalkeepers not been in such good form could have ended around 3-1 to us. Given we were kicking towards the Holte End in the second half it was not unreasonable to expect that we would be able to apply some concerted pressure on an Everton team that were increasingly looking as if they would be satisfied with a point. But they had this game handed to them on a plate after having gone behind we squandered an opportunity to draw level which our overall play would have merited up until that point and then gave them a second through slack defending finishing the game comfortably second best. As we did last season we are finding wins very hard to come by at Villa Park and we are getting into the habit of conceding goals all too easily and not being able to score them ourselves. That has dampened early season optimism and suggests we might yet face another season of struggle. It also puts a lot of pressure on our being able to pick up points away from home to make up for our inability to do so at Villa Park. Our next two home games are against Cardiff and Sunderland. These are games we might expect to start as favourites to win but that was the case when Newcastle rolled up earlier this season and were another team to come away from Villa Park with the points. So although these begin to have the look of “must win games” albeit very early in this season how confident can we be that we can conquer our Villa Park anxieties twice next month? My player ratings from another Villa Park game that has seen the away fans rather than us leave the ground happy are: Brad Guzan – 7 – Made a fantastic reaction save to deny Lukaku a headed goal by pushing out his goal bound header from a 26th minute Coleman cross. His legs also prevented Lukaku opening the scoring after he had run past both Vlaar and Luna inside the box on 31 minutes. Leandro Bacuna – 6 – Not able to get as involved up front as often as he usually does yesterday. This for me has further strengthened the case for trying Leandro further forward again and playing Lowton at the back in an attempt to strengthen both our defence and our ability to make things happen up front. Had a shot deflected for a corner having cut inside on 16 minutes. Ron Vlaar – 7 – A good solid central defensive display. Nathan Baker – 6 – Did well in the centre but he is not a full back and that showed when he moved there following Luna’s injury and got pulled into the middle too often leaving space on the flank more than once. He was too casual with a pass well inside his own half that he hit straight to Lukaku and was fortunate not to be punished for this lapse on 24 minutes. But he did well to deflect a Miralles effort out for a corner on 35 minutes and it was after he left the middle that Lukaku made hay. Antonio Luna - 6 – Replaced on 45 minutes due to injury when stretching to reach a ball into the box aimed for Mirallas. He had found more than a little difficulty in managing Mirallas up until then. We missed the forward runs and crosses he might have provided in the second half. Aleksandar Tonev – 6 – A decent enough performance. Tracked back well and moved forward on occasion with some purpose. Fabian Delph – 7 – MOTM - Was unable to make quite the impact on a strong Everton midfield that he has made in other games so far this season but was still our most effective midfield player. Hit a measured shot towards the far post on 57 minutes that was deflected off Jagielka for a corner. Ashley Westwood - 6 – Showed some signs of improvement on his recent displays. Got a touch to a Barclay effort from the edge of the box that hit the bar on the half hour. Andreas Weimann – 5 – Did not seem comfortable in his wide position and really should have done better after a ball from Gabby aimed towards Benteke ran on to him in oceans of space on 25 minutes. His run was well timed but left clear Howard rushed forward and got a foot to the ball on the edge of the box before he could take the opportunity he had worked for himself and a defender blocked the ball to safety. Gabby Agbonlahor – 5 – Should really have done better on 75 minutes after a nice ball from Delph found Weimann running in the box and his cross was deflected into his path but his effort although on target was tame and straight at Howard who gratefully gathered the ball. Had earlier made a committed run into the box on 56 minutes but an end product was missing. Failed to get any sort of challenge in on Osman for their second after Barry had been left in so much space inside the area and pushed the ball to their scorer on the edge of the box. Christian Benteke – 6 – Currently lacks the sharpness he had before his injury which had seen him scoring goals for fun up until a month ago. Was brought down by Coleman inside the box after Weimann had played a nice ball to him between 2 defenders but his 8th minute penalty was well read by Howard who pushed the ball over with a one handed save that was the first of the game changing moments in this game. He was again denied by the keeper on 23 minutes after Gabby had played a lovely ball to Tonev who then hit a pass past 2 defenders but Christian’s effort was kept out by Howard. Had a shot from the edge of the box deflected onto the back netting by Jagielka and will not have this many opportunities without scoring again this season. Substitutes: Ciaran Clark – 5 - Replaced Luna on 45 minutes and failed to stay on Lukaku on the edge of the box for their crucial opening goal. This was a disappointing second half performance by Ciaran playing as one of two rather than three central defenders. Nicklas Helenius – Replaced Tonev on 77 minutes not on long enough to make any impression on the game or to merit a rating. Up the Villa! John Lewis

What a farce this new league is. Participation for under 19s should be decided on their own merit rather than on each club's current first team status in UEFA. To not invite the holders of the previous trophy shows they do not want to open up their new league to anyone other than the chosen few and that teams are selected on influence rather than on ability!

"I may be wrong but I think the youngsters abroad would prefer to play and be paid, rather than sit on the bench and be paid". I am not sure their approach to an offer would be that much different to a youngster who is already playing in the UK villan-007 but having said that our very own Okore did turn down Chelsea to play games rather than warm a bench and should any player make a similar decision that would say a lot about them and show their outlook on the game is being motivated by game time rather than by money and the bright lights.

"A diary if the season 80-81.. May - "Last Saturday of league season sees Aston Villa crowned league champions" (I wasn't born, will I ever see it for myself.. I doubt it, that hurts)". I was there in 80/81 dodgyknees. I was not born in 1909/10 when we had last won the title and back in the late 60s to early 70s I had no reason to think I would see us win the league and my hope back then was that we would get back in the top flight rather than win it. It hurt then and I can fully appreciate that it hurts now but history can repeat itself and I hope it will in the coming years for those like yourself who have yet to see us take the title and for those of us who would rather like to see us do it again.

"He's more likely to play sooner with us though. Could be a factor if he's well advised". Agreed P3te but I would be shocked if someone who is with Milan would be advised to go for us rather than join a top 6 club who would most likely offer him more cash than we would or stay where he is.

He still gets to more games than Carson Yeung does! I wonder if he has become a little concerned about the reception he might get now his investment in the playing side has all but dried up and the team has fallen from the top 6 which it had become familiar with and given trips to Wembley have become memories rather than expectations? I would like to see him play a more active role at the club and come to the odd game although he has never been one to say much to the press or to the fans. His absence is a pity given how often he used to be seen at Villa Park and it brings to question how he now views the investment he made and the football club he still has control of.

Agreed villa-revolution and thanks. I think the game may have came a week or two too early to start Benteke and 30 minutes was all we could really ask of him at this stage of his comeback from injury. Points taken Ulver. I think we tried to do another Manchester City on them by catching them on the break and making it difficult for their game to flow albeit this was at home rather than away as we had done at Arsenal and Chelsea. I would also like us to be able to match the likes of Spurs at football at home but at present and without Benteke starting I can see why Lambo considered this the most likely way to get something from the game. However, the next 3 home games are ones I think we will need to try to show a more positive approach to from the start.

Source: Player Match Ratings: There’s no place like home?

We now have three defeats from our first four home league games this season and it seems a very long time since Villa Park could be considered a fortress for us. There was to be no heroic comeback of the sort that we produced against Manchester City in a last home game nor was there to be a repeat of the meek surrender that led to our cup exit against the same visitors just 26 days earlier. But although Spurs had to work harder for it this time they got their now customary win at Villa Park with something to spare and must wish they could play us every week given it has been 5 long years since we got the better of them. There was not a lot to choose between the two teams in the first half. Spurs stung by their defeat against West Ham were still a touch below their best and we worked hard to press them without either side really looking likely to score until Townsend who can do no wrong at the moment scored with a fortuitous cross that eluded everyone on 31 minutes. Their decisive second came at a point in the game that we held the ascendancy and dashed our hopes of a repeat of the second half comeback that we produced 3 weeks ago. Benteke’s return had raised our spirits and had his header been a couple of feet lower 5 minutes before they stretched their lead it might have been a different story but there was to be no coming back from a two goal deficit. We really need to find a way to win games at home consistently. Whether that is achieved by playing 3 at the back or by some other tinkering in formation or starting line up we cannot rely on getting our points away from home although clearly our pattern of play is more suited to games where the home teams press and we can hit them on the break. The vast majority of our fans see games at Villa Park and they want to see wins rather than a run of defeats for their hard earned money. Everton, Cardiff and Sunderland are our next three visitors and we really need to be looking for two wins from those three games to keep our league position looking healthy and to keep the fans coming back to B6 during a time of recession. My player ratings from a game that could have taken us above Spurs but which has left us sitting 3 points clear of the drop zone in thirteenth place are: Brad Guzan – 7 – Got well behind a Soldado shot on 21 minutes but was beaten 10 minutes later by a Townsend cross which eluded Soldado’s outstretched boot and that Holtby ducked under to leave Brad wrong footed as the ball sailed in at the far post. He then kept us in the game with 2 splendid saves. The first was a one handed stop that denied Townsend a second when he hit a shot from the edge of the box on 45 minutes and the second came on 50 minutes when he did equally well to turn a Paulinho effort around the post. Brad was beaten for a second time when Paulinho played a deft ball to Soldado who burst unchallenged into the box on 69 minutes and hit the ball past him at his near post. Leandro Bacuna – 7 – Impressive again particularly when getting forward but he has to be in order to keep Lowton out of our starting line up. Could there be a case for trying him again in the middle and playing Lowton at the back? Ron Vlaar – 6 – Steady enough himself but needs to utilise his experience to try to better organise the defence around him which was too easily torn to shreds for their second. Nathan Baker – 5 – Might not have started had Clark not picked up a warm-up injury and this was not one of his strongest performances for us at the back at what may have been short notice. Nathan was far too casual on 72 minutes when playing a ball in his own half straight to Soldado that could easily have led to a third and to their running away with the game. Antonio Luna - 7 – Did well enough at the back particularly given he came up against Townsend and proved a threat moving forward as was demonstrated on 90 minutes when Weimann was not quite able to turn the ball in following his nice run into the box . Karim El Ahmadi – 6 – Got stuck in well enough and was much involved in the middle but can get let down by his touch and distribution. Fabian Delph – 8 – MOTM – Another fully committed performance in an under pressure midfield and despite his now habitual booking near the end he was by some way our most effective performer. Surely Roy could have a look at him if he is considering adding the likes of Redmond and Berahino for the next couple of England squads? Ashley Westwood - 5 – Lloris found some difficulty in pushing away his curling 21st minute free kick but he was again some way below his best and needed to try to stay with Soldado when he ran into the box to add their second. Andreas Weimann – 6 – Good work rate throughout but his endeavour lacked an end product. Hit an effort wide from the edge of the box on 27 minutes. Was fed by Bacuna 13 minutes later and his good cross which was bound for Kozak who would have been left in the clear was well intercepted by Dawson who slid in to block its progress. Hit a decent shot a couple of feet wide of the post on 42 minutes after Westwood had found him on the edge of the box. Needs to find his goal touch but he does work well with Benteke and his return may well bring it back. Gabby Agbonlahor – 5 – Hit a 3rd minute cross from Bacuna that found him near the penalty spot over the bar. Gabby did not make the sort of impression on this game that might reasonably have been expected and that would have had the England manager sit up and take notice. Libor Kozak – 4 – Needs to show much more than this and to settle into his new surroundings quickly if he is to mount a challenge for a starting place up front now that Benteke is back in first team action. Presented little threat to the Spurs defence. Substitutes: Christian Benteke – 7 - Replaced Kozak on 61 minutes. His arrival produced a big surge in both belief and momentum which was quenched too soon by their second goal which settled the game as a contest. Christian leapt high to reach Bacuna’s cross 3 minutes after his introduction but was unable to keep his header down. Ring rusty but his appearance gave us the goal threat we had lacked up until then. Yacouba Sylla – 6 – Replaced El Ahmadi on 72 minutes and I have to say that I struggle to see why he is not starting games now. Aleksandar Tonev - Replaced Gabby on 79 minutes. Not on long enough to get a rating but hit a cross on 84 minutes that Weimann was not far from getting on the end of and hit a shot a minute later that was on target albeit easily gathered by Lloris. Some positives for him to take from this brief outing. Up the Villa! John Lewis

Villa and England for me rather than one or the other. Having seen us win the league, LC & EC in person and England win the WC on TV I have to say that they all gave me a hell of a lot of pleasure and club and international football is not a case of my club side against my national team. Villa have made a great contribution to the England side over the years number wise as have ex-Villa players in more recent years although it has not helped us keep them at VP lately. Gabby and Lowton should have been in or closer to the England squad earlier this season but injury for Gabby and being out of the first team in the case of Matt have given Hodgson some grounds for not selecting them in the current squad that were not there earlier. Hodgson is another "yes man" in the style of Ron Greenwood who suits the FA and it seems having worked in our area he is now happy to ignore it when it comes to international squad selection. But any World Cup Finals without England in it is the same as a Champions League/EC without Villa in it namely something I have far less interest in. Villa are my team and although they are not as good as they were in the early 80s they will always have my support. In the same way England are my national team and will have the same although they are not the team they were in 66 or 70.

"I was VERY young at the time" - As was I neil 3241. "Yes in fairness we cant really claim him as one of ours although he did play for us at the backend of his career. His definitive years were with Wolves perhaps their greatest ever player". You are right we cannot claim him as one of our own in isolation Paul C but he played for us 64 times so he did his bit for us and we had a share in what he did over the years he played football. As PaulC has said players back then were often considered past it at 30. Peter was not the player he was at Wolves when he joined us in the same way that George Curtis, Andy Lochhead and Dave Gibson were not but they did their bit for us although Coventry, Burnley and Leicester would be considered the clubs they were at when they were at their very best.

14 points would do for me.

Former Villa player Peter Broadbent passed away yesterday (1/10/13) aged 80 following a long battle with Alzheimer's disease. Peter joined Wolves from Brentford in 1951 scoring 145 goals in 497 games for them. He played in their 1960 FA Cup Final win against Blackburn and also won three First Division Championship medals with Wolves in seasons 53/4, 57/8 & 58/9 before moving to Shrewsbury in 1965 and from there to us in 1966. Peter made 64 appearances in our claret & blue shirt in seasons 1966-67 to 1968-69 before moving to Stockport. Undoubtedly his best days were with Wolves and he joined us near the end of his impressive playing career and at a time when we were in sad decline on the playing field. But it was a pleasure to see a player of his quality in our shirt back then and glimpses at Villa Park of the undoubted quality he had. Peter scored 2 goals for us. These came in 1969 during the 2-1 FA Cup win against Southampton at Villa Park which those of us who were lucky enough to be in the 59,084 crowd that night will remember so well and he then added another in our fifth round 3-2 defeat at Spurs a couple of weeks later. Peter won 7 England caps and was a creative inside forward who became the most expensive teenager when Wolves paid Brentford £10,000 for him as a 17 year old. Peter Knowles described him as being like a “ballet dancer on grass”. My thoughts are with his family at this sad time.

Thanks briny-ear. I guess the difference in gates might be explained by Manchester United & Liverpool having had a higher profile for a longer period than Citeh so they have had longer to gather glory hunters who live near Villa Park... Form, how likely it is felt that we might win, how many home games we have had in the week(s)prior to a game, what offers are made by the club on prices and how crucial games have become as a season or a cup competition nears the end are also likely to influence crowd size for games against other clubs. But more games and results like this will have a positive impact on our attendance figures and I trust that can be demonstrated during the rest of this season!

I did a quick check back for you lexicon and we have only gone 4 league games since I last gave a 10 to Benteke for the Sunderland game so they can turn up. I would also add that our MOTM was close to getting 8 this weekend.

A 10 is as you say a very rare thing for me lexicon but it is out there waiting for the sort of performance that would earn it and it would not quite need to be as worthy as you have suggested 12 goals in 90 minutes or even 120 minutes would do it! That linesman did play a blinder Nigel and it is so nice to see us get the rub of the green for once. I could not agree with you more on those points you have made villa-revolution and I would also like to see us drop this zonal marking and adopt the policy of each of our players having a man or post to cover with one player left on the half way line so that the other side need two players back to cover him at corners.